Kimberley Abbott and Vested Impact

Ben McAlary:

Hello and welcome to Ashurst's Business Agenda. My name's Ben McAlary and you're listening to Outpacing Change, our new miniseries where we meet visionaries who have challenged and changed the world around them.
In today's episode, I speak to social enterprise entrepreneur Kimberley Abbott, whose career to date has blended business savvy and engineering know-how with real ethical intent. Kim's the CEO and founder of Vested Impact, a groundbreaking FinTech startup with an incredible mission. The algorithm she's created enables people to make decisions on where to invest their money based on where it makes the biggest impact on society. The algorithm and data is informed by her previous role as expert consultant for the United Nations. We talk about the inception of Vested Impact, its biggest challenges, achievements and how it was informed by her experience in founding a social enterprise organization in India as a 21-year-old. I promise this conversation will leave you inspired as Kim shares her lessons learned from all her years outpacing change and leading with vision, empathy, and humility.

So let’s jump into the discussion with Kim.

Kim, thanks very much for joining Ashurst's Outpacing Change miniseries.

Kimberley Abbott:

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

Ben McAlary:

American author and self-help guru Denis Waitley said, "Failure is delay, not defeat. It is a temporary detour, not a dead end." Now, reflecting on that quote, Kim, can we start our conversation in a time machine? Let's go back to when you were 21 years old, you're in India and you've just founded a social enterprise that you ultimately had to walk away from. Can you share that story with us, how you got there and what you were doing, and ultimately the lessons that you learned from that detour?

Kimberley Abbott:

Yeah, it was one of the best experience of my life and one of the most challenging. So I was 21. I found myself volunteering in India one university break, and we were actually teaching in granite quarries on the outskirts of Bangalore in central South India. And these people here, they mine granite 12 hours a day, six days a week, and they make about one US dollar a day.

And we were teaching the children, but whilst we were there, it was a woman in the village came up to me one day and she said, "Well, you come here and you help our children, but no one does anything for me." And it was in that moment that I realized, A, she was not asking for a handout, she was asking for a hand up. She knew that she was capable of more than sweeping granite dust in the quarries, which is the primary role that women fulfill there.

So I decided, you know what? Women are the most underutilized resource in the world, and if we could empower women, that could have potentially the greatest transformational change on these villages, which could transform these communities, and in effect, an entire economy.

So that was how it started out and it was a social enterprise that trained women in running a business. It was effectively a jewelry business where they made jewelry out of waste granite dust that the women usually just swept up off the quarry and dumped. And they ran the business. They got a salary from it and the excess money funded the education of the children through the organization that I was with.

So it was an incredible experience in both learning how to run a social enterprise, and how not to. We made many mistakes. But I think I did initially, I went through two phases of thinking this was a failure.

The first was that, at its peak, after about four years, it was employing about nine women across two villages, funding the education of about 150. But I was incredibly frustrated because I wanted to help billions. There was billions of women that needed help and I was so frustrated that I was only helping nine.

And my first lesson was that nine lives matter. To the world, they may be nine people, but to those nine people, their world is better off because of what we did. So I learned a hard lesson there that impact is at an individual level.

But the second thing was, you mentioned, Ben, that I walked away from the company. And after about four years, it became pretty clear that, in order to scale this, if we truly wanted to scale it more than the nine, it needed people that had more experience on the ground in India that had an organization and a better structure around it. So we already had a partnership we'd worked with the entire time, with 40K Foundation, so we handed it over to them.

But it was a big lesson in me because I put off that decision for at least a year because I didn't want to let my baby, my social enterprise, go. The lesson was that it wasn't about me. And I think when you're creating change, radical change, social change, you have to keep in mind that it is ultimately about what is best for the people you are serving. And the best thing for these women, and for more women, was for me to walk away and hand it over.

So I did, but I only wish I had made that decision sooner. And I've learned from that in life now to make difficult decisions and make them faster and remove myself from them. It's not about me many of the times, but it was one of the best experiences I had that kicked off my career, but one of the most difficult at 21 to walk away from something I had built and nurtured because the best thing was for me not to be running it.

Ben McAlary:

Do you look at that organization now, do you feel proud of the impact that you made? Is the organization still over there? Is it still doing this work that you set up?

Kimberley Abbott:

It actually shut down a couple of years ago. So it ran for many years, and I very much kind of distanced myself from it. It was the right thing and I needed to do it. But I got an email a couple of years ago that just said, "Hey, just letting you know, it's wound down."

But actually, I was really proud of that because I think, when you are building solutions that solve problems, you should build obsolescence into it. Your goal should be to solve the problem so you are not needed, that you're not needed anymore because these women have fantastic lives, have figured out how to economically empower themselves.

And so actually, the point of them going, "It's served its purpose. It's no longer needed," as sad as it was, is again, the absolute goal you should be aiming for. And I say that even with private companies and things. The goal shouldn't be to make more money. The goal should be to solve the problem so much that you are not needed anymore because the problems don't exist.

So it doesn't operate, but I am proud of what we did. I am proud of those nine lives that we helped. I'm proud of the one life because it matters too. So yeah, I look back on it fondly. BUt like I say, I also look back at it at many stressful nights and times and sleeping on huts in quarries in Bangalore. But yeah, it's an incredible experience I'm so glad I had.

Ben McAlary:

Was working within this space something that you ever thought you would be in in terms of that social enterprise space? Did you have a passion? Did you look up to anyone in that space or was it something that you just felt drawn to?

Kimberley Abbott:

I became an engineer because I wanted to solve problems. So I think that was the inherent thing. And a lot of people look, and we'll talk about this probably in the podcast, the different parts of my journey, and they seem quite different, but actually they're all connected by one common thread, which was I love to solve problems and I want to solve problems. What those problems are, it depends on where you are in life.

But I think that was the thing. I became an engineer, and I think engineering puts you in a unique position where you can truly help design and build the world around you. So I think I went to India with that problem solving need and desire already, and it was just finding a problem that I was passionate enough about and that I felt like I had expertise and knowledge to help solve that. Then it became just a no-brainer, really.

Ben McAlary:

All right, so let's get into the time machine again. Let's fast-forward now. Tell us what happened after India. Where did your career take you after India?

Kimberley Abbott:

Whilst I was still running Roka, I graduated university, actually, and was already working as an engineer. And after doing both of those things, I think, for a couple of years, I needed a break. But I fondly say I sold my soul to the corporate world for a few years. But I worked at Thales, a multinational French engineering company, which I credit so much, actually, for where I am today because learning to work in a huge institution, learning the rigor of good engineering and getting exposed to different projects was super valuable. So I did that in Sydney, Australia for a few years. They also moved me to the United Kingdom for a couple of years where I was lead engineering and innovation. Then I got to work on some of the coolest, most crazy emerging technology areas. Think UAVs and drones and smart cities and cybersecurity.

So I did that then, and I loved it. I loved the job, but I think I never lost that itch to want to solve problems that matter. I was solving problems every day, but I felt like they weren't problems that mattered to me or what I felt mattered to the world. So without anything in mind, I then actually left that job with the goal of going, "I'm going to apply my skills, my talent, everything I know on solving problems that matter," but I hadn't actually picked a problem yet. So I pulled the pin and I decided to start on a new mission of trying to solve the world's biggest problems.

Ben McAlary:

It's a fascinating journey. I'm really interested in this next part. Because obviously your values, your beliefs you hold very close to you and you want to see that within your career and the work that you do. What happens next?

Kimberley Abbott:

So I actually wrote on my whiteboard one day... I thought I'd do some consulting, to which you always have a few weeks of you haven't got work. But I was very fortunate, and I'll touch on this later, I started consulting for the United Nations.

But I actually one day was just sitting at home and I wrote on my whiteboard, "How do you solve the world's biggest problems?" I wrote that exact sentence. I actually still have a shot of it. And then I just kind of broke it down. What are the world's biggest problems? What are the three things? Is it money? Is it knowledge? Is it collaboration? Underneath that, why isn't there enough money? And I wasn't naive enough to think I could solve all the world's problems, but for me, it was about finding a part of it that was so important that, even if I fail in trying, the world will be better with me having tried. And it was just finding a part of the problem that I felt I was passionate enough about and could contribute to again.

And yeah, I drilled down on going a big issue with how we solve the world's biggest problems is there is simply not enough money going into... We're about $5 trillion a year short of enough money to solve all the world's global problems, which include climate change, poverty, inequalities. Even if we put in all the philanthropy, government, charity in the world, we're still trillions short.

So I thought the only place that money exists is the private sector and the capital markets. Why can't they move that money is because there's no way to measure impact as simple as the bottom line on a balance sheet. And I thought, "I know data. I know impact. I'm going to pick that." And that was kind of all where it started. It was just finding the right problem and then figuring out how I could solve that.

Ben McAlary:

So what sort of timeline are we working here? When did you go out and do that discovery piece?

Kimberley Abbott:

In 2019, the very start of 2019. If you've seen the movie Beautiful Mind, I was writing all over whiteboards, I was just... Exactly that, diving into the problem and trying to understand it all. And by the very start of 2019, I had a pitch deck, I had a business idea, I had a solution that I'd mapped out. And then it all just kind of grew from there. It changes a lot. I think that's the key of innovation. You learn new things. And I was working in a sector I'd never worked in, which was finance. But yeah, effectively it started in 2019.

Ben McAlary:

So what we're talking about here is obviously you founded Vested Impact, and it's hard not to read, when you Google Vested Impact, the inspirational mission or goal that Vested Impact has. Can you share the story about how that came about and almost the reaction you got from communicating that mission to various stakeholders?

Kimberley Abbott:

Yeah. So as I mentioned, the goal of Vested was to drive more money into solving the world's biggest problems. And we realized the way to do that and what became our mission was to redefine millionaire to be a person who impacts millions of lives. The same way you can log on and check your stock market and see your return, you should be able to log on and see how much impact, how many lives you have helped. And that was the goal, and it still is. That was the vision. How do we empower every single person to know the impact their money delivers to the world and society, not just to their bank account?

Yeah, and I think it was interesting. We got mixed reactions, I think, when we first actually launched it. I mean, I think, inherently, investors and people have always cared. I think we reduce them by saying they only care about money, but the truth is we've never let them connect their hearts to what they're doing, and now we can. So largely, people loved it. People said, "This is actually always what I've wanted to do." Some feedback we actually got that saying redefining millionaire wasn't big enough. We should be redefining billionaire and trillionaire. So I think that was great.

We did get one... It was a reality check in some senses too because one thing we've worked really hard with at Vested... So Vested is a platform that assesses and monitors the impact that companies have outwardly on the world's biggest problems. We do that with an algorithm that pulls on over a hundred million impact data points. So it's not what we or what companies say is important, it's what the data says. But one thing that was really important with the redefining millionaire is understanding that, even with the best of intentions, companies and people can still create negative harm. And so making sure, in Vested, that we don't just count and capture the positive impact, that we also measure the negatives and the indirects and the flow-ons. So that was just one thing that was another piece of reaction and feedback to go, "People care enough about this, as well, to make sure that it's done right, so we have a duty to make sure that we do it right and thorough, as well."

Ben McAlary:

As a disruptor coming into the capital markets and almost being a tool that investors can use alongside existing markets to measure the impact that organizations have, how important is it to collaborate, I guess, and bring in the right people and surround yourself with the right investors and the right contributors and the right supporters? How did you go about that process?

Kimberley Abbott:

Firstly, I think collaboration is the only way we're going to solve this problem because it is so big and we're talking trillions of dollars. We're not talking about a few good companies or a few good investors. It is going to take the collective movement and care of everyone. So I think that's absolutely... I think the how you do it is actually... It has been the most challenging experience.

I come from a development sector of the UN experience of going, "We understand what impact is. We understand how to measure it." And then almost it was like I turned up to the financial sector and it was like speaking German to the French. It was a language that they don't even understand. They'd never even heard the word, some of them, the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, things like that, that collaboration actually took then a huge, an incredible amount of patience because you effectively are having to educate people on something that I quite passionately believe that everyone would just know or just care about.

So understanding how you tell the story and engage people and make them see the value for them. I mean, doing good is good business. The data is there that says companies that do well for the world do well financially. So making sure that that resonates with people, that the people that understand data are happy with the quality, and the people that understand impact are happy that this kind of methodology and system is doing justice to the whole pretense that impact is actually about the people on the ground. Not companies that behave well, but companies that do. So I think, for us, it was just integrity, patience, and just a huge amount of willingness to take our time and talk to people and listen to their concerns.

Ben McAlary:

Let's rewind a little bit because you've brought it up a couple of times, your United Nations role. Could you tell us how that came about?

Kimberley Abbott:

Yeah, actually incredibly fortuitous, really. I had left the job at Thales, as I mentioned, and I had thought, "I'll pick up some consulting in social impact." And it was actually a colleague of mine, his father was working for the UN in quite a senior policy role and they were desperate for a tech and data person.

Now, you have to understand with the UN, particularly this was five years ago-ish now, that they are a policy institution with some of the best people in international development and policy, but they are not a technology institution. And what they were trying to do, which I think was quite progressive at the time, was they were trying to measure and monitor and assess the impact that peacekeeping operations were having globally.

So $8 billion is allocated to peacekeeping around the world in 13 different countries that are in conflict. And every quarter, they would have to report on were they having an impact? And they realized that simply saying, "We did 5,000 patrols in Mali," doesn't tell you if you've actually made it safer.

So they set out on this huge project called the CPAS, the Comprehensive Performance Assessment System, to assess and monitor impact. And what they needed was a system that could bring in huge amounts of data, data that could be specific to every single different country and conflict, and could help them track and monitor this impact.

So I was brought in to kind of go, "Can you just initially give us a sense of what this undertaking is going to be like?" I think it was a three-month contract to capture some requirements that then turned into four years, four years of me then leading the development of the platform, traveling to so many amazing places that I don't think you normally travel to, but it was one of the hardest but also one of the most interesting jobs I've had the pleasure and honor of doing. So that was four years of gallivanting around the world in the name of peace.

Ben McAlary:

I'm sure your passport and all the Visas you've got in there is probably good reading, actually. All the wonderful stamps in there would be fascinating.

I want to go back now just to the Beautiful Mind whiteboard that you spoke about and mapping out what was to become Vested Impact. You obviously would've gone through and looked at the trends and opportunities that were happening within that space at the time. And one of the things that you've communicated a lot is that Vested's methodology is different to ESG-focused metrics because ESG-focused metrics, what the standard ones are, operated and reported on within the business itself. What role do you think... And going back to 2019, which is not so long ago, but the huge boom and the huge conversations we're having within the ESG space, were you just in the right moment at the right time for Vested, or is there other sort of factors at play, do you think?

Kimberley Abbott:

Reflecting back, I actually often say to people it was not the right time, and I'll touch on that in a moment. But the ESG thing was actually one of the catalysts for Vested because I too had gone, "Why aren't we putting money into companies that do well?" And then I came across ESG and went, "Oh, wow, this solves the problem."

But then when I dug into it, that was when I actually got incredibly frustrated as a person who understands impact. I was working for the UN at the time going, "Hang on a second, this is looking internally at what is the risks of climate, of social regulations and laws on a company, not what is the impact of the company and the power the company has on these issues." And so that was the catalyst of Vested. I went, "Hang on a minute, A, this is all wrong." And it's not wrong in terms of it was designed to measure risk, but it is wrong if you are applying it to want to target impact and progress and change.

So I went, A, this is... I need to fix that. And also, "Well, hang on a minute, I know how to measure impact, so let's do it right." So I think that was already happening, so that absolutely catalyzed it. But the reason I say it was actually the wrong time was ESG was so early then, and we're talking there was only tens of millions being put into ESG. Not mainstream like we see here in 2023.

So I then was going around to financial institutions saying, "Hey, guys, you need to look at impact." And they were only just starting to even get their heads around ESG. And that was the biggest thing, I was convincing them almost of a problem they didn't even know existed yet. It was almost ahead of its time, if I could say that without an error variance to say that they weren't ready. They weren't ready for impact. They had to learn and understand what ESG even was first before they could see where it was useful but where it was not.

So yeah, I think the difference we saw... And I have one anecdote from a financial institution, it was only last year that I was talking to the CEO of this major multinational financial institution and they said, "We get it, Kim, but impact is a five-year problem, not a now problem." And in less than a year, they came back to us and were like, "Okay, it's a now problem." And it was frustrating, but it's taken people, I think, particularly with impact, to understand and get their heads around.

So it's been an absolute wave. But with that, the greenwashing, we talk about trends, that has almost been sometimes the best thing that happened for us is that awakening of not that an ESG is bad, and I want that on the record, but that it was not designed to measure what we are trying to shoehorn it in, hence why tools like Vested are needed.

Ben McAlary:

So with that wave that you rode from 2019, and it has been, as you said, the growth in the space is enormous, and reflecting on the lessons learned from your time in India with your social enterprise organization, the issue of scaling has come back. How have you managed that ecosystem of customers, fundraising, investment priorities? How have you gone about getting that scale right this time?

Kimberley Abbott:

The first thing is making sure... And I think the earlier question about, actually, collaboration and getting the right people, it is about that. In the earlier question on collaboration, I should have mentioned it really is about having the people with the right skills in the right roles, having people that truly understand impact, sustainability and the context in which those operate in are needed in those roles.

So for us to scale, it was about not just finding in ourselves as an organization that we have those right people, but that we are working with people that truly believe what we believe, that they have the right people in place. Because we have incredibly powerful and detailed data that can tell you the positive, the negative impacts, the indirect impacts, which means, even if it is a mining company, yes, we can show all the negative impacts they have, but we can also show the positives.

So it was knowing that we were also working with people that could understand how to use that data, not misconstrue it, and make sure it's just in how it's used. So for us to scale, it was about, A, building a board, an advisory board of incredible mentors that I have that would understand a business, but a business that needs to put impact first. That's what we do. Everything we do is this going to help make an impact. That would understand what it takes to create global systemic change. If we want to move $5 trillion, we are talking the biggest banks in the world involved, not small investors.

Then we needed to find clients and partners who also believed in all of that, as well. So that has been actually the longest part of the journey, and it's still slow at times finding all those little pieces. But I think once you have those, you have the base for scale, which, for me, it's just kicking at that scale part now. But I feel like because we have all those things in place, it almost makes it impossible to go backwards because you've built such a solid foundation to then evidence that this can be done at scale, that it should be, and that there's the right people supporting it, with it, and alongside it.

Ben McAlary:

So tell me, what do you believe is your biggest obstacle at the moment for Vested Impact, where it is in its life cycle, where it is in its growth? What's the biggest obstacle for you guys?

Kimberley Abbott:

It's trust, actually. And I get this all the time from both consumer and people level, and I think greenwashing is something to touch on here. But also from a data sense, the biggest question we get often is, "Why trust you? Why your methodology? Why your system? Why your data?" And it is a valid question and one that should be asked. I'm glad it's asked. But I often think, "Well, why trust the others? Why are we trusting companies that have only ever tracked the financial metrics on a balance sheet to now track what we think is important to a company?"

And for us, it is about the fact that the United Nations is a client of our data, is that we have that experience. But that trust isn't bought simply by logos on a sheet. It is truly about proving to people that the way you operate is in-line with everything that they are concerned about and that you're truly in it with them and for them.

So I think trust is huge with the people we work with, but that is underpinned by a lot of what we see with the trends in greenwashing because people care. We live in a society that cares more than it ever has. But with that, because we are so emotionally tired now to caring about the climate crisis, to the waste problem, to food security, that we also are more nervous and we almost lose a sense of trust.

And I'm okay with that. We need to earn people's trust. But it is one of the biggest time challenging things. We have to put a lot of effort into being so transparent about what we do, why we do it, how we do it, the data we use to build that trust. Because I think, once you get trust, which is what we're seeing in our scale journey, once we get the trust of clients, of institutions, then it's wonderful. But I try to be patient and understand that we have to earn that trust. And I think it is a good thing that people are demanding it.

Ben McAlary:

It's almost like people are, nowadays, they're carrying their mental whip and chair out. They're much more accustomed to an environment where isn't a lot of trust, there isn't a lot of transparency. So it's a huge challenge and I think it's a challenge for a lot of business leaders at the moment.

All right, we're entering the part of our episode we call the quick-fire questions. Kim, are you ready?

Kimberley Abbott:

I think so. I'm as ready as I can be.

Ben McAlary:

Excellent. All right, Kim, how would your colleagues describe you in three words?

Kimberley Abbott:

Passionate, impatient, optimist.

Ben McAlary:

If you could have a coffee meeting with any leader, alive or not, who would it be?

Kimberley Abbott:

Madeleine Albright, the former US Secretary of State. She did incredible things in peace and conflict, but had an incredible view on the power of the private sector to drive change, not just be a part of it. So I think I'd love a coffee with her.

Ben McAlary:

Good answer. What is the biggest myth or misconception about your industry?

Kimberley Abbott:

Companies don't have potentially the greatest potential that exists to change and save the world.

Ben McAlary:

When it comes to generating new ideas, are you a morning person or an evening person?

Kimberley Abbott:

Definitely a morning person. I don't think, even in my whole time at university, I don't think I ever pulled one all-nighter, but I pulled many get up at 4:00 AMs. So I'm absolutely a morning person.

Ben McAlary:

And name one book or podcast that you'd recommend for a business leader.

Kimberley Abbott:

We Can Do Hard Things by Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach. And it's not a business-specific podcast, but I think it's an incredibly good one for your mental wellbeing and just navigating life as a founder, as a person. It is my absolute favorite and one I think's worth listening to.

Ben McAlary:

Kim, lastly, for business leaders that are listening now, what piece of advice would you share for delivering radical change?

Kimberley Abbott:

Pick a solution that matters to you because I think the single biggest factor in achieving impact is a belief that you can. Yeah, and I think it was Apple that said, "The people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones that actually do." So if you want to deliver change, I'd say you'd have to be passionate about it. It's okay to start small, but aim big. I think that's the other thing. I think if you try to... As I mentioned with my how to solve the world's biggest problems, if you try to do that, you will overwhelm yourself. But if you can pick the small parts and celebrate those wins that contribute to that big journey, then I think you've got the vision, but also something that you can chew off.

Ben McAlary:

Very well said. Kim, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much for joining the podcast and having this discussion today.

Kimberley Abbott:

Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Ben McAlary:

Thank you for listening to Ashurst's Business Agenda. This episode has been part of our special Outpacing Change miniseries, where we speak with innovators and disruptors who've changed the world around them.

To make sure you don't miss any future episodes, subscribe to Business Agenda on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, feel free to leave us a rating and a review. Until next time, thanks for listening and goodbye for now.