Episode 2: Future of Work

Bob Walker:

We acknowledge First Nations people as the traditional custodians of the land on which we work in Australia, and we pay our respects to their elders, past and present. We extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people listening today.

Bob Walker:

Hello, and welcome to Ashurst Business Agenda. My name is Bob Walker, and I am a director in risk advisory at Ashurst. This is the second episode of our mini series about trends in workplace, health and safety, and in this episode we'll be discussing the future of it. And I recognize that that's a really broad topic, and we'll try and bring that down and put a lens on it, particularly around safety. Joining me today, I have Trent Sebbens, who is a highly experienced lawyer within the Ashurst employment team, and was at forefront of providing advice to clients in what was a once in a lifetime set of circumstances that have unrolled over the last couple months, and I think it'd be fair to say that as a result of Trent's work and Trent's ability, he has the undisputed title of king of COVID, internally. Thank you, Trent, thanks for joining us today.

Bob Walker:

Also joining us is Siobhan Casey, who is a director with ACS, and has been at the forefront of helping tech entrepreneurs over the last several years, navigate what is an incredibly changing, and fast moving technology landscape. So thank you for joining us, Siobhan. So the future of work is such a broad topic, and so to try and bring that down a bit, I actually thought something that happened yesterday, and as we all know, yesterday was Mother's Day in Australia, and my children returned home dutifully to celebrate with their mother, and we had dinner last night, and I was talking to them about the podcast, and the conversation that we're having today, and it struck me that... My son is an electrician, and my daughter is a nurse, and both of them don't get that opportunity to work from home, the type of work that they do, you can't do from home.

Bob Walker:

So I think today's conversation is really around relating to knowledge workers, and the technology, and the change, and the rapid change in what we all saw in that knowledge based workers, working from home. Given the conversation I had with my children last night, it's probably worth thinking about having another conversation around this, around what that actually looks like for those people, that the world's still changed quite dramatically, but not in the way that it has for knowledge workers. I mean, I'm sitting here, my substantive position is in Sydney, but I'm currently in Adelaide, and I'm still doing my job, and I think we are seeing more of that. I'd like to explore some of those types of, if you like new normals, next normals, hybrid, all of those sorts of things, that has been banded around, and particularly around putting a safety lens over the top of that.

Bob Walker:

So, that's where I'd like our conversation to go today. Trent, from your perspective, given what you had to do really being at the tip of the spear, if you like, almost two years ago now, or two years ago now, what were some of the key lessons that came out of that, that your clients learnt the hard way and, or really quickly?

Trent Sebbens:

The experience was effectively across the board, in sort of all sectors of the economy, and for all of our clients. You've mentioned that the future of work, and the sort of, perhaps more enduring changes coming out of the experience from the COVID-19 pandemic, and our shutdowns might be more pronounced in knowledge workers, or professional spheres, but we certainly saw across the board that there was shutdowns of businesses, even those who just simply cannot do their work, and businesses cannot operate if everyone is from home, we saw them moving into that phase. Agility, I think is the most sort of significant lesson, at least in that first phase, and being able to cope with uncertainty. So from a work health and safety perspective, and also in relation to employment type matters, that included just how to deal with this new phenomenon, which no one had ever experienced before.

Trent Sebbens:

Being able to apply the usual principles of risk management, and putting in place risk control measures for the entirely unexpected, and for most employers, the unplanned for, what we've been through, previous pandemics of SARS, and Avian Influenza, and Swine Influenza. We haven't quite had that hit Australian shores, quite in the same way that it did with COVID-19, and I think the lesson to draw from that, perhaps more broadly, is that if we were to face such a significant either industry specific, or perhaps even economy-wide safety related, because that's really what it was, issue, in the future, it is trying to have emergency management plans, or contingency plans, or at least systems to be able to deal with that, just unexpected. Which is easy to say, plan for the unexpected, and then trying to implement it is a very different thing. But I think that's likely the lesson of having those standing arrangements in place, if businesses can do that.

Siobhan Casey:

It's funny. I just want to jump in with what Trent had shared, what my experience was at that scalability, those large corporates often had some of this black swan event planning in place, moving call centers from other locations, particularly in Southeast Asia to onshore, within 48 to 72 hours. It was actually all the smaller businesses that just hadn't even, war roomed, shall we say, 30 employees, 25 employees, like, gosh, how do we do this? And I think they were the ones that actually were most challenged.

Bob Walker:

Very much so, and I think I had a similar experience in that. For my sins, one of the things I look after is business continuity management, and I was working with a client who called me in early, in 2020, and said, hey, look, we have a continuity plan. It's about 500 pages long, and we just can't really get it to work right. So we sort of, we just stripped all that away, and said, what's important here, what's critical, what's going to keep the doors open, what's going to keep people employed? And let's build some planning around that. That 500 page plan came down to about 22 pages, right? So it was giving them exactly what you spoke of, Trent, giving them some agility, some the ability to be able to move. We didn't know at that stage, in the early part, anyway, that we were going to have a number of waves of this, and we were actually going to get almost back to normal, and then jump back into being lockdown.

Bob Walker:

So we went into that, and Chevon, during that particular process of contenting it from 500 to 22 pages, technology was at the forefront, right? It was about what's the technology that you need to continue to use your business? What we heard from the exec, was that digital transformation, which was a five to 10 year journey that they were on, actually came down to about five weeks, and I wonder if you've got similar experiences around how quickly that journey changed.

Siobhan Casey:

So, my area of focus with tech entrepreneurs is really at that front end of emerging technologies, and businesses solving real problems using that tech infrastructure. So I kind of laughed initially, or smirked initially, probably laughed is an exaggeration, but when people challenged us, can you work from home? I sort of smirked and said, tech entrepreneurs work on the bus on the train, work, lying down. The location is not important, connectivity is ubiquitous. So all the teams were geared to be connected and on, seven days a week, 12, 14 hours a day, that wasn't the issue. So they easily mobilized, and moved remotely and worked on chat channels and whatnot, which is again, quite prevalent in tech startups, or tech entrepreneurship. What was the harder part was that really lovely ideation, which happens much better when you are face-to-face, whiteboard jam boards, kind of constantly moving your product board, which is not as easy to do when you're doing remote work, that was probably the first part. And then, the second part when it comes to safety, which I think we've seen after this long tail, is the mental strain, and the emotional side of fatigue, and where do we get to decompress? Which has been an interesting part, not just for tech entrepreneurs, I think for the workforce more broadly.

Bob Walker:

Yeah, absolutely. I think for me, that shift to working from home whilst professional services that had been something that we've been doing for a lot of sectors, it hadn't been, and so what it raised was the trust issue, and can we send you home? From a safety perspective, can I trust that you're actually have a good chair that you're ergonomically sound, you are not working off your ironing board, and that you are logging on, and doing some work, because we start to look at trust, and we look at productivity, and there's a bit of a balance there, that was in the early days, was difficult to get right for organizations. We saw a few times when that didn't quite land in the right way, and I know Trent, you had some insights around that trust and productivity conversation.

Trent Sebbens:

Yeah, I think certainly that changed to people working from home, and just the lack of visibility, which I know that some supervisors, managers, prefer to have eyes on their workers to see that they're being productive. There was a mental shift, in addition to the physical shift, and the technological one, which was effectively accepting that there couldn't be a version, at least in the usual sense of presenteeism, that there had to be trust placed in workers to be able to achieve the goals that were given to them, or the work tasks that were given to them, and that they were working together as best that they could, remotely, or from their lounge rooms, or home officers, and that they would still be able to achieve the outputs without having that sort of direct supervision. So I think a shift in both the ways of working, but also ways of supervision and management, and perhaps we might see a permanent shift in that, in that, the hours of the day, the traditional working hours of the day for some sectors, or occupations might shift to a greater focus on simply outputs or achievements.

Trent Sebbens:

I know within certain occupations already, that is the primary goal, or the primary measure, but I think we'll see that sort of evolve to other sectors and lower layers within businesses as well.

Siobhan Casey:

There's definitely been an increase in people's email signature saying, I might send emails outside of work hours, it doesn't mean I'm asking you to look at it or action it, I don't know whether that's been your experience, but I've seen that in the last few years, because people, you're right, Trent, people are definitely getting back on the tools with balancing family, and homeschooling commitments, a whole range of things that everyone had to juggle.

Trent Sebbens:

Yeah, and you mentioned as well, the mental health aspect of all that, and I think we have lived through a period, and I imagine with hybrid working, going forward, we will continue to deliver that, which is that we have people who are working from home. I've heard that cast as living at work as the alternate, which is that I'm never away from work, because work is my home, and therefore being able to actually disconnect, and to have some boundaries around what are my working times, when am I working? For those who have enjoyed the flexibility of being able to work at times of their own choosing, that there's not then a sort of reciprocal obligation, or expectation that they will just constantly be online, and be choosing to be online, at all times. We've seen that certainly overseas, that issue come about, France has a right to effectively disconnect, or log off, whether or not we see that promulgated in other jurisdictions, we wait to see, but I think the lesson from it is being able to respect those boundaries, and that people should be able to have them for their own mental health. Being able to disconnect, decompress, is going to be important, because we've certainly seen that rise of mental health issues during the pandemic, and perhaps afterwards, as well as people come to realize, I actually was quite stressed, or overburdened, or I didn't enjoy that experience as much as perhaps others did, or were able to cope with it.

Siobhan Casey:

I think that was just because they were responsible for homeschooling, not working from home.

Bob Walker:

Well, can I put to this to you both then? So, we've seen recently, some organizations actually say to their staff, that whilst your job might be in Sydney, or Adelaide, up to three months of the year, we are quite comfortable for you to live, and, or, work overseas, but I just can't get my head around it, right? I'm old school, and I've been used to going to the office for 40 years, and for all of a sudden someone to say, well, you can go to London for three months out of the 12 months, and work there on that timeframe provided, it works in with your business, and with the projects that you're on, is just amazing. So what do you both then see as some of the absolute advantages for that, and what technology going to be needed to be able to do that? How do we continue that trust conversation, and where's our safety responsibility, Trent?

Trent Sebbens:

The move to a hybrid model, if I can describe it as that, so partly working from home, or from some other location, overseas in some idol, or working in a traditional workplace, I think that will be the future. We've certainly seen COVID-19, and the pandemic very quickly accelerate that move. I think it's fair to say that employees, and their wants, are probably ahead of where employers are currently at. I was reading a Microsoft future of work report, they've set up a study on this, which from various literature surveys, including a Stanford University study, it reported that 46% of workers preferred a hybrid model, with 32% wanting to stay fully remote, so never attend a workplace, with the UK study being even higher than that. They found it 59% of people wanted to adopt a hybrid model, but the employers are lagging behind, employers only around 40% of them are planning on a hybrid model.

Trent Sebbens:

So I think the want is outdoing the meeting of those requests. There will be a dance, I think, which plays out amongst various employers, and depending upon what sector you're in, you will have different parts of your workforce who are able to work from home, or work remotely, and others who just simply can't. You might have to manage the cultural impact of that, but I think as well, we will need to think very carefully about those safety responsibilities that you've mentioned. What are our safety obligations to employees working remotely, both from their physical safety, and you've mentioned some of the home office ones, working on the ironing board, or at the kitchen table, the ergonomics, the other factors like just simply tripping over or checking electrical cords, those sorts of things, through to the mental health ones, of just becoming more isolated, or disconnected.

Trent Sebbens:

It's quite clear that the obligations will extend from the employer, to its employees, and other workers, when they are working from home, regardless of whether they're in the office or not. I think as well, we'll need to see on the employment front, and some other changes come about, that permits that flexibility if it's possible, as well as working arrangements, and we're starting to have discussions around the reason for people coming into work, whether or not there are anchor days, making the time in the workplace, much more meaningful when people are back in the workplace.

Siobhan Casey:

Yeah, just off the back end of Trent's, I was just examining that initial process two years ago, we were very much in an adrenal process, and we quickly pivoted to working from home. We got all the tools to trade to be able to facilitate essential work, and then that's been now, an aspiration for many to have a percentage, as you've shared, Trent, about, hey, I'd love to maintain that. I think perhaps we're lagging in some tools to help ensure that we reward people remotely, rather than having to have that sort of normal, kind of quarterly thing with teams huddles that once a quarter, the other component about the three months, perhaps Bob, that you've shared, overseas, or in remote locations, traditionally, I mean, the benefits of that to me are quite strong.

Siobhan Casey:

Women are one of the highest participation. The biggest age bracket is 45 to 55, where women are the highest percentage of females in the workforce, and yet, they're also the biggest age bracket, which is drawn to support an aging parent. So the ability, if you had a parent living in another country, you could perhaps maintain your employment, or reduce your firm hours, but still be in a home environment, helping to administer care day-by-day for an elderly parent, which would ensure from an employer's perspective, they would be in a better position to maintain that talent, rather than perhaps lose that because obviously family commitments come before our job. I think there's some options that employers could look at it from a different perspective, but I do think we've got to evolve our tech tools to broaden that work experience, to help deal with some of those mental stresses, and decompression.

Bob Walker:

I couldn't agree more, and so there is certainly a wellbeing component to this, and the use of technology to assist in that. I know that I did a review early on in the piece for several government agencies, and one of those was a corrective services agency, when obviously when we couldn't allow face-to-face visitations to occur, they actually pivoted to using iPads to facilitate visits. What came out of that, was just unknown wellbeing benefit, because the person who had lost their liberty, now wasn't just getting a visit from an individual who was sitting across from them, but was actually seeing their significant other in the home. They could see their car, or they could see their dog, or they could see other parts of their life that they couldn't get, and so that had a tremendous wellbeing impact on that population that was incarcerated. I believe that was just an outcome that nobody thought of, was just amazing, and I think that is going to in some way, shape, or form, continue.

Siobhan Casey:

You think that the stress as well, of traveling to and from work, particularly in big cities where there's lots of traffic, and we all sit in the car from 5:36 in the morning, that's got to be an uplift that people aren't every day having to go through that. I think we've got to look at the balancing point of the benefits.

Trent Sebbens:

Yeah, and I think just to add to that, Bob, as well, is we've sort of likely heard in the press of the great resignation phenomenon. I'm not sure that's quite been the Australian experience, but certainly in the US, and parts of Europe, it has. I think part of that is that people are starting to see the benefits of those new hybrid models, and also thinking about whether or not their employer will commit to them in an ongoing way or not, and if they're not going to do that, then perhaps they vote with their feet. I think that touches on both mental health, and wellbeing more generally, but also that phenomenon of whether or not people do make a lifestyle choice that they'll change jobs, rather than stay with a current employer who's not willing to embrace either a hybrid working model, or that increased flexibility, and different ways of working, coming up with tech solutions to commit that to happen.

Bob Walker:

So one more question, and probably the hardest question of them all, what's it going to look like five years from now, what does the workplace of the future look like, and what is the technology that's needed that's going to support that, to be able to do that in a safe way that considers people's wellbeing, and psychological health, what would we expect to see?

Siobhan Casey:

It's a great question. I think we're already seeing trends emerging from leading, from my particular area in tech, so that sense that you can be based anywhere, you don't have to come into the office one day a year, at the far end of that, with that Atlassian, I think what you're going to see is a repurposing of office locations, which have traditionally been characterized by small amounts of meeting rooms, lots of desks, and it'll be much more collaboration, and iteration, and ideation kind of spaces for people to come together, and generally problem solve, collaborate, reward, collectively, praise in public storytelling, those sorts of things to inspire team members, rather than replacing simply a desk at home for a desk in an office environment. I think you'll see a lot more emergence of those co-working locations for not just entrepreneurs, but potentially other services that people can come to.

Siobhan Casey:

So clustering of services in co-working locations, I think the flexibility of home and work, I hope, that sense of cooking meals from scratch, we've got more time where we can do things better, we're not going to have everything out of a jar, or a bottle, or delivered from menu log five days a week. I think that we'll see nuances that move forward, I hope that we maintain it, I hope that in five years time, we're not back to this expectation of being seen in an office, and back to those trends that Trent referenced, presenteeism, and because I've got to be here, and I'll just stand at the water cooler for 30 minutes, and shoot the breeze about what happened on Netflix. So hopefully we continue with a balance, that would be my aspiration.

Trent Sebbens:

Yeah, and I agree with all of that. I hope that the future does hold, that we are coming to work for meaningful experiences, including that we're coming together to both story tell, work together in a collaborative way, and be creative, and that it's not just a return to presenteeism, and that the tech solutions that assist when we are not together, aid us to be able to do that once we go, and separate again. I think the other lesson, which is sort of where I started, Bob, it seems as though unfortunately respiratory pandemics are part of a cycle, and I've named the ones that we've gone through over the last 20 or 30 years. We do unfortunately have to plan for there being a potential further pandemic, whether that's a respiratory one or something else, and to plan ahead for that.

Trent Sebbens:

So I don't want to cast a poll over our discussion, but from a safe view perspective, planning for that is going to be important, and that we don't forget the lessons that we've learned over the last two years. Apart from the very positive things, the tech changes, the flexibilities, the dropping away of meetings for the sake of just being in the room together, and hearing each other talk, but not being very productive, hopefully all those are enduring, but we also learn those sharper lessons of the pandemic as well, and not forget them.

Bob Walker:

Wow, that was a very quick conversation, all the time seemed to get away really quickly on us there. I thank you both, for coming together, and sharing your insights today. For me, it's been really insightful, and really refreshing, actually, you sit down and listen to a couple of people that were at, and still are, at the forefront of managing, and helping organizations manage their response to what was a once in a lifetime incident. Really appreciate the insights, and the effort that you've given in coming on today. Thank you.

Siobhan Casey:

Thanks, Bob. Great to be here.

Trent Sebbens:

Thanks so much, Bob, and hopefully I can abdicate my monarchy as king of COVID very soon.

Siobhan Casey:

Prince of the pandemic, I thought you said.

Trent Sebbens:

That's right.

Bob Walker:

Thank you for listening to this podcast episode in our mini series about workplace health and safety trends, to find out more about our podcast, head over to www.ashurst.com/podcasts, to ensure you don't miss any future episodes, subscribe to this podcast via Apple podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform, and while you're there, check out the other episodes, and feel free to leave a rating or review. Thanks again for listening, and goodbye for now.