Let’s Yarn: The inside story of how to expand and empower First Nations procurement

Trent:

We acknowledge First Nations peoples as the traditional custodians of the land on which we work in Australia. We pay our respects to Elders past, present, and emerging, and to the youth who are working towards a brighter tomorrow.

My name is Trent Wallace and I'm a Wongabon person raised on Darkinjung Country, and I'm the Head of First Nations Strategy at Ashurst.

Today, you'll be hearing from my friend and colleague Will Houston, who is our procurement lead based in our Sydney office. Will highlighted some really important points on working with First Nations businesses, including moving away from transactional type relationships into building partnerships with First Nations businesses. With Will's support, we have been able to grow our First Nations procurement in a culturally safe and sensitive way and build lasting relationships with the First Nations businesses. I was delighted to hear about the extension of diverse suppliers and creating supply chain resilience in our yarn with Will. Let's jump in and listen to the conversation.

Will, thank you so much for joining me today. Firstly, how are you?

Will:

Yeah, life's good. Trent. Thank you very much for having me on the podcast for a yarn.

Trent:

I'm very excited for this. So can you tell me a little bit more about your procurement journey, how you got into it? Because I understand you were a lawyer before all of this. So, when did you start in procurement and why?

Will:

Yeah, you've done your research well. I think most people, I fell into procurement. I started off my professional life as a commercial real estate, hotels, resorts, and tourism lawyer. I worked at a large global law firm for five years and then saw the light. I got offered an opportunity actually to be a professional rugby union referee. And with that, there was also a kind of a need whilst that was weekends. I needed something to keep things rolling over Monday to Friday. Very lucky that the key sponsor of the referees for the Australian Rugby Union at the time was TNT, and they had a real estate and procurement role going. I didn't know much about procurement, but I knew plenty about real estate from my background. So I took up a job with them and then fell in love, less with real estate and real estate management, and more within procurement, working with suppliers and buying some pretty cool things then for the past decade or so that I've been in procurement, from aircraft tyres and air cans all the way through to pens, paper, and plastic folders.

Trent:

Wow, that's incredible. Being in the industry for a decade now, as you've said, what are some of the key changes or key influences you've seen within the industry?

Will:

Yeah, it's been really interesting. Some of the things that have grown in that time was there's a lot of focus around being green. And sustainability is that key piece and that cornerstone that was corporate social responsibility. There's always been charity pieces that firms or large business and corporates have supported. And then sustainability about a decade ago was starting to become a thing. Global citizenship reports being written. And the big focus then when I was working in transport and logistics was around emissions. How we reduce our emissions, what you can find as fuel efficiencies, et cetera and the like.

And then what's grown over that time has been a move from not just the S in CSR, but more going into actual proper social procurement objectives. How we can support, how corporate dollars have a real important drive in reflecting society and improving society. And that's driven in our First Nations spends and the opportunities that have opened up there, in looking at diverse suppliers and the importance of having a resilient supply chain. And not just having the big end of town looking after everyone, but going for that 80-20 rule: 80% of your spend sitting with 20% of your suppliers. And then having an appropriate tail that sits around there to give you something unique that actually becomes your supply chain is like your employees. It's reflective of the entirety of society.

So that's been a really interesting piece that's driven around and through and allowed businesses to drive change, but for people to also really see the values in their organisations and where they work for. And that's been really fascinating to navigate that, not just from a supporting the pressures or needs that come through with the business, but also then seeing some of the great ideas that can come through from having a less beige, if you like, supply chain.

Trent:

I really would love to know more about building the resilience within the supply chain. Can you talk to me a little bit more about that?

Will:

Yeah, absolutely. One of the best examples of that over the past few years has been what COVID did to supply chains globally. What we ended up seeing during that time was with borders shutting down, with a reduction in air freight, particularly in opportunities, was that it became near impossible to move things around at the same pace. So where we had a huge move to globalisation within supply chains, production, manufacturing out of key centres like Taiwan and China for various electronics and semiconductor activities and whatnot. All of a sudden businesses had to then try and go local. You had to find that same sort of piece locally. Because it wasn't... Lead times for AV equipment, for instance, various technology, were upwards of 12 to 18 months because of the backlog. There was a huge drive as well for everyone going into laptops in 2020, 2021 as well, away from the desktops, and that put pressure on an influx in demand.

And so what it allowed for was a really cool exploration of let's do things local and see the power of local suppliers, and it gave them a voice around all of that. So what it did was it stress-tested a lot of supply chains, and those that had good networks were able to then adapt really quickly and continue to supply and support along the way. And it was again, a really... Yes, it was a bit unfair for the big global supply chains in how they then had to pivot because they'd put so much effort into centralising manufacturing production activities and whatnot. Think, oh actually, you know what? The local guy or girl gets a chance to shine.

That supply chain resilience is really important as well for them sharing ideas around making sure that you're getting things not just at the right price but from the right place. And I think that's been really interesting to see. And the importance of a resilient supply chain, COVID absolutely showed those that had thought about it and those that have put all their eggs in one basket.

Trent:

No, that's really interesting. And to think about those changes as we zoom into the Australian landscape in terms of procurement from First Nations businesses. How have you seen that grow with particular focus on the last decade but also with what you've just spoke about in creating a resilient chain? I'd love to know the relation to that.

Will:

Yeah, I guess what's been awesome, Trent, is that you have bodies that are advocating around it, but advocating around it well. And being able to just say that I think a lot of people when they think of First Nations procurement, and a number of the businesses generally tend to focus more around cultural significance, to celebrate culture, with all that, whether that's catering, education programmes, learning and development, cultural awareness training, all those things, that, hey, we get to talk about a fair bit with working here at Ashurst.

What we've been able to see that is because of that focus on local is that you're starting to see different categories of spend being able to be supported by First Nations businesses. Whether it's IT resellers through to catering, most trades are now covered by a First Nations business. And not just a small enterprise, but medium to large First Nations-owned enterprises for a range of facilities, construction activities, and whatnot.

We've also seen because of the moves post-COVID into changes in our working environments, that's really allowed for First Nations businesses to be celebrated and to grow with the influx of construction activity that's taken place in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, particularly on the eastern seaboard. So they've been again, positioned really well for that switch to local for a resilient supply chain, but then not just being able to be... I don't want to say tokenistic, but ends up being I'm going to go to First Nations supplier because it's culturally in season this year. You're actually able to see a number of these businesses have grown to being able to support a regular ongoing supply. And that's where the value comes with some of the approaches that we've chosen to take around relationship building, not just try to hit a quota mark, per se. And that's delivered a lot of success in recent years for us.

Trent:

Yeah, absolutely. And look, when you started in the role, it was a really exciting time for the firm I feel. And I had noticed an increasing focus on First Nations procurement from various clients, various sectors. There was a real great focus on that procurement element from First Nations businesses. And to have your passion and expertise in this arena has been transformative, I feel. So that leads me to my next question. Can you share some of your recent wins you've had in terms of engaging with First Nations businesses?

Will:

Yeah, I think we've had a lot of fun, haven't we, over the past few years in jumping into that. Remember our first discussion we had together, which was, "So what are we doing in this space and what can good look like?" And I think we've had a lot of... I guess what we've chosen to do is take a very deliberate step in going, let's not try and go down the quota path as a starting point, because that feels tokenistic, dare I say it, male, pale, and stale. What we wanted to explore around what was genuine, authentic First Nations and social procurement vibes that we were hoping to give out was: Let's look at participation. Let's look at relationship building and discussion. Let's bring out a genuine awareness campaign offerings.

I think everyone within this space, whether it's First Nations spend or Diverse, capital D, supplier spend, everyone wants to do the right thing, they just don't know where to start because it's such a huge bucket to go with. It's like sustainability was five years ago as we've gone through that education all across society. Do I want to go plastic free? Do I want to go fully recycled? Do I want to go green production? There's a whole range of things that people have understood each of the various greenwashing aspects and delved down to what's genuine and what works for them in being socially conscious.

So what we've done within the First Nations spend here in activities has been looking at a 50% participation rate in all of our request proposals that are Australian focused, first and foremost. What we've then also done is an exercise around looking at where our key ongoing relationship opportunities exist for small to medium businesses that we engage at the moment, and looking at can we sub in a First Nations supplier? Is there someone who's cut from the right mustard to be there?

And we've also chosen not then to have the mindset of a tick-box exercise. We are not giving contracts and business away to a business just because they're First Nations. They have to earn it. And that's part of our evaluation process, being fair to all suppliers that sit within a small to medium or large enterprise arrangement for us.

Trent, when I started here at the firm together with you, we were a spend of about AU $17,000 a year ongoing in what was quite token spend, in the sense of it was ad hoc, separate engagements, and whatnot. And we've been able to grow that now to $1.3 million worth of spend with First Nation suppliers, ongoing relationships of significant value and they spread across a whole range of categories within the firm.

And I think what's been really great as well is that we've made that job easy for people. We've put options in front of them. We've started a conversation or relationship, which is such a big piece in building and working with First Nations people is having a yarn. Just like today, and they get a chance to talk more and more about what their offering is. The individual gets the comfort around that supply. And then we give them opportunities. And everyone is very much, because you've built that relationship, you're able to then have some tougher conversation. Things aren't going well and you course correct, as opposed to pulling the parachute cord out too quickly, is what some people do when it comes to changing suppliers. I think I've been really impressed with our stakeholder group at Ashurst. They've been super open to that. And I think they've been open to hearing the conversation, which is really impressive for a firm that generally is quite risk averse at the end of the day.

Trent:

It's really interesting when you pick up on those terms like tokenistic. We know First Nations businesses don't want that type of engagement. They don't want those tick-a-box exercises. We like to build meaningful relationships with the people we come into contact with, and we want to ensure that our business is culturally safe, culturally aware. And so I really thoroughly enjoyed you hitting the nail on the head there when talking about tokenism and people going for these opportunities. It has to be an equitable process. There has to be an understanding. There has to be a cultural understanding element. So I really appreciate you touching on that. So I thank you for that, and I know that these relationships are ones that we truly do value and we're so grateful for and grateful for your lens of transformation across the business.

I'd like to know though, when you first started, was there much of a focus? A decade ago, was there much of a focus on First Nations businesses?

Will:

Yeah, great question. I guess from working in a transport logistics business, most people thought that First Nations engagement was employing First Nations people. It wasn't necessarily around your suppliers, your contractors, and that third-party piece and support. What has been a thing is that First Nations supply, largely driven by government conscious purchasing, has been enabled and allowed to echo out. So it's gone from... In the 10 years I've looked at procurement, when I look back at tenders and questions I asked in tenders 10 years ago, they're very different, because they now include ranges on diverse suppliers. I'm not just asking about work health and safety arrangements for coming onto site. I'm not just asking around price at the end of the day. There is a third and a fourth and a fifth bottom line that we now consider in our evaluation to make sure we're making the right purchases at the end of the day and that we've considered a range of options. So I think to answer your question, it's gone from zero to hero in some instances.

Trent:

It's really interesting when you put it through that specific lens of longevity and resilience. Comparing it to a decade ago and we see the growth of First Nations businesses. Obviously there are considerations around issues like black cladding and confronting those topics head-on along with tokenism is really important for the business. At the end of the day, it's a business decision, it's not a favour. But we have to do our own kind of cultural due diligence, I feel, in many ways in understanding how relationships work with Mob, and it's been something we've been able to navigate quite nicely. And seeing you join the firm and watching how much we've grown. What was that figure again when you first started the spend? Was it 17,000 to...

Will:

It was about 17,000 Aussie dollars a year and we're now up to 1.32 million Aussie dollars last financial year.

Trent:

It's incredible. Those are incredible numbers. And I think to grow in that short space of time really showcases what's out there and what's available from First Nations businesses when you build those relationships. In terms of other sets of diversity, I guess, shift away from the dominant paradigm, have you seen much of a focus on procuring from LGBT+, disability organisations, all of those kinds of things? Have you seen a growth in that as well alongside First Nations businesses? Is it highly competitive?

Will:

Yeah, it's a great question, Trent. The short answer is yes, I have seen that pickup. And that's driven by two facets. One, those businesses have government support, and whether that's through various government initiatives and offerings. NDIS for instance, and the way that that's been structured and run, that has allowed those businesses to grow up. I guess the difference that we see is that BuyAbility and other various Disability Network of Australia organisations, they're probably a couple of years behind where Supply Nation is. As to how that's absolutely from my own perceptions and perspectives around how big those organisations are, what they're able to offer as a variety of categories of spend and support opportunities, et cetera and from there.

I think you raised a really good point before around black cladding. It's the same thing as greenwashing. There are all these pieces that we see that become puffery within sales lingo and speech, and then actually what is delivered is not what you're hoping to achieve. And I think what is the difference with diverse LGBTQ+ and disabled suppliers is they don't have that same way of authentication yet of how their business is run and owned, women-owned, veteran-owned, et cetera. They're all self-nominations and appointments. Whereas with First Nations businesses, because Supply Nation gives you a registered or certified tick of approval and double thumbs up, when it comes to purchasing, you have far more confidence in working with those businesses so you're not going down a path of black cladding, for instance. What we need to challenge those organisations or those government bodies or non-government bodies to do is to advocate for something similar so we get that same sort of confidence as purchases going forward.

Think about it for your own personal shopping, as if it's important for you to purchase things that are Australian made, you have the Aussie kangaroo and green triangle to give you that level of comfort. That's what Supply Nation have with their system. It'd be great to be able to see that as well other things. Again, to have that confidence. To allow those businesses to really be successful because they're usually small businesses that are building up and working with things. You need foot traffic and people through the door. There are some pretty easy ways to build that up and to have some instance behind you as giving people confidence in purchasing goes a long way.

Trent:

Absolutely. And I'm thinking about it, as we do our own personal shopping as individuals, people are becoming more savvy with what they're spending due to the various considerations for cost of living. People are certainly interrogating their decisions a little bit more, I believe. And it's great to see businesses supporting and empowering the First Nations economy. It's a really strong tool of empowerment to feel valued. I know when I see First Nations products for sale or an Acknowledgement of Country, even when walking into stores, it certainly signals to me a certain level of acceptance, and therefore it feels empowering. So it's been wonderful to see that growth and to see that focus on creating broader supply chains and creating more resilient supply chain.

As we move forward, what are some of your predictions for the procurement industry in the next, say, five to 10 years? And do you believe we will see more emphasis on diverse suppliers? Do you think First Nations growth will continue to prosper? What do you predict reading the tea leaves?

Will:

Reading tea leaves in how I see it pan out, I do think that you'll continue to see a growth in your local supplier preferences. And certainly with First Nations and diverse suppliers, that'll continue to grow. And as I said, I think that if we look at proof of concepts around how successful First Nations business has been because of Supply Nation's support and advocacy, if those same things can happen and be available in celebrating other diverse businesses, they'll continue to grow and be super successful. So I definitely see that as continuing to be a thing that'll run through.

The biggest piece and obviously the hot topic over the past 12 months since our friend ChatGPT hit our stores and our web screens is everyone's talking around AI. And I guess what ends up being there a case around how that can really help a supply chain be managed properly, where it can be challenged and help you set in with suppliers, to be able to pull out... What's quite a labour-intensive and admin-intensive exercise at the moment to go through for us in Australia, look at our supply chain for various costs and smaller contracts that we have across all our offices, to then go and do the research in each of our local office metro centres. What alternative diverse, First Nations, veteran-owned, LGBTQ+ pieces. So the joys of AI helping in to build you in there to supply selection and opportunities and building in there, that'll further add to and work around all that.

I think we think about specifically the realm that we sit in at the moment in professional services and law firms. I actually think that you'd expect to see my role existing in most other firms and professional services firms as a stronger voice going forward. There is so much question being put on your supply chain reporting requirements. I mean you and I, I think, get a request every other week for putting something into a bid around what our spend is, what our activities have been, et cetera. I think that there's probably going to be more of me existing, whether it ends up being at national, global or regional levels. That becomes really important for having someone who's got that meaningful approach and support to achieve the supply chain pieces, to look at policies and guidelines, and to educate law firms to be really good corporate businesses. I think that'll end up being something that pops up.

And obviously the biggest thing is going to be reporting requirements. There is a range of that that already exists, and you've seen that compulsorily come through for a whole plethora of things, whether it's salary, gender gaps around that, that's a requirement here now. Around actual diversity reporting in your own staff, et cetera. And emissions reporting as we all work towards net zero. And very proud, I think, that we're part of a business that has said we're going to hit net zero by 2050, and then hopefully a few years before that, and making those public commitments now. Everyone wants to do the right thing, but reporting requires extra workload and again, so that brings in the realms, the needs for procurement people or people with absolute focus on your supply chain to be able to talk about that.
When you look at most businesses and you look at outside of, say, the manufacturing industry, most businesses will have a majority of their emissions coming from third parties, out of their supply chain, so it's their scope three emissions. Working with often a lot of small to medium enterprises, First Nations businesses, socially conscious businesses have some great initiatives around... Also they're not mutually exclusive to being also really sustainable businesses as well. So you can have some great conversations there. And again, it's about celebrating all of that work that goes into that governance piece.

So for me, it's more about reporting and the need for extra head count there, but reporting allows you to celebrate success. It creates transparency for accountability, and I think that we'll continue to see a growth in First Nations and diverse suppliers, and technology is very much going to help that journey.

Trent:

It's really interesting to hear that kind of feedback when you're thinking about what's next and looking towards the future. I think it's great to see the amount of thought, care, and consideration that has gone into this. Obviously, we're playing with a lot of money and there needs to be all of those layers of interrogation, but there also needs to be cultural safety and sensitivity in those interrogations. So when I'm thinking about this, I'd love to know, a lot of people are on different parts of their journey. Some businesses are spending more, some businesses are spending less. What would you say to people on their First Nations procurement journey, how would you speak as an ally to First Nations businesses? How would you encourage procurement functions across Australia or based in Australia?

Will:

Yeah, it's an awesome question, Trent. Look, I've come from a background where we started with no clear guides around this except for the fact that we had the desire to get it done and to do better in this place. And that's a really broad challenge for any procurement person or business to take on as an initial starting point.

I think when I reflect back on the journey that we took, we started with basics around foundations. How could we then fully review and break down our procurement guidelines and our procurement policy? And we had a really interesting initial challenge around did we want to have a First Nations procurement policy, a social procurement policy, and our own procurement policy? And turned to our ultimate stakeholder in the business and said, "No, we need to have it all ingrained in one place, because that's what authentic looks like and it should be part of our natural conversation and thinking every time we're purchasing." It shouldn't be something that gets tacked on. A little bit like Barangaroo is to the Sydney CBD. It needs to be connected in with the Wynyard tunnel, et cetera, it needs to be connected in with transport and all the rest of it, so it becomes very much part of the full scenery and how things run.

So what we did there was we obviously went through, brought our First Nations ideas in there, and also gave resources to people within our policies and guidelines. Because people are going to go and look. There they're going to check that they're doing the right thing. How can we make that first job easy for them?

The next piece for us was actually a journey working with Supply Nation, our account manager at the time, in developing First Nations supplier awareness training. This is a couple of webinars that we ran over the course of 2022 and 2023, which not just told our business about First Nations suppliers and introduced Supply Nation to them, but it was about showing the resources available and then how we engage appropriately with cultural sensitivity to First Nations businesses. It's not the case of just dropping them an email saying, "Please send me through a quote next week, and thanks very much." There's a conversation that has to be picked up and the importance of relationships, the importance of a yarn, and a couple of yarns along the way so they understand, and they also want to work with you too.

Moving it from a transactional mindset to a partnership was really the core of what we looked to do with our supplier awareness training. That instantly increased our participation in tenders and quoting from First Nations businesses, and whilst they haven't been successful in every tender we've run at the firm, they've been involved in it, open to feedback and discussions with it, and we've kept in contact, whether that's going to Connect and saying hi each year, or generally with updates as to what's happening within their business.

I think as I said before, people want to do good. They want to do the right thing in this space. It's about giving them some tools and making it easy for them. Because the easier something is to pick up and run with, people are actually more than happy to go forth and do it. It's sort of like sometimes when you're thinking of peak hour traffic and working from home and it's wet outside, people get in the car and drive because that's simpler. They won't hop on the bus or run across the bridge per se. And so what we're trying to do is to give people the keys, a car parking spot in town, and everything else in between that makes it a seamless journey to ultimately being able to put good options in front of them.

Trent:

I really love that line that you used, moving from the transactional to a partnership. And I think that's the key to this, because what underpinned that is respect. Respect, understanding, cultural safety, cultural sensitivity, but respect for your fellow human, basically, rather than just creating a transactional environment. Creating a partnership is really important, and that's what I can see across First Nations work, across Corporate Australia, developing those mutually beneficial relationships, those partnerships that can continue to grow. And having direct conversations and an open flow of conversation about what can be done better or what's done really well, where we can head to next.

Do you have any final words, any final thoughts that you'd like to share with the listeners today, Will?

Will:

I guess, Trent, just building off what you said before then, that's everything that we've tried to create with the Ashurst experience with our supply chain. And First Nations businesses, I know that you and I have worked a lot just on that, but also on the Ashurst experience project as well. It's not just around saying, "We're a big global company, come and supply. You want to work with us." We have to want to earn that joy with all of that. And I guess I get to reflect back on the support we got as part of our global rebrand just over 18 months ago where we had an opportunity to consolidate our entire merchandise print and branded collateral portfolio, give everything a wash of sustainability, get rid of a lot of the crap that genuinely sat out there with bits and pieces, and we got to choose a couple of items to be First Nations specifically procured.

And that introduction from McDonald Printing Group to Intercept Co. who now supply us globally with our sporting shirts and singlets has been a great celebration that First Nations businesses, when given the chance and opportunity, can take something to the world. Our Ashurst shirts have done the London Marathon, Boston Marathon, New York Marathon, City2Surf a couple of times, and Run Melbourne, and I'm sure there's a few others in between there that I've missed, largely probably because I'm sitting supporting as opposed to running these days.

So I think that the key thing is that if you make it simple, you search things out there, or just have a yarn, a conversation, it's amazing what can open up with an opportunity. And it ends up ticking a lot of boxes, but it also ends up being a really smart business decision at the same time as well.

Trent:

Oh, thank you so much, Will. It's been an absolute joy and delight, and all of the handballing we do with the reporting and the tight deadlines, all of the fun things. Thank you so, so much for joining me, Will. I've been so excited to share this story with our listeners.

Will:

No, thanks very much for having me on, Trent. Real pleasure.

Trent:

Thank you very much for listening to this episode of the Let's Yarn podcast. For more episodes in the Let's Yarn series on ESG Matters @ Ashurst, please visit Ashurst.com/podcasts. Or alternatively, you can listen to these episodes on your favourite podcast platform. While you're there, please feel free to leave a rating and or a review. Thanks for listening. Take care. Bye for now.

Promotional message:

If you enjoy ESG Matters @ Ashurst, why not check out our other two podcasts series as well? Ashurst Business Agenda tackles the big strategic issues that business leaders face. And Ashurst Legal Outlook explains the emerging legal trends and requirements of our fast-changing world. You can listen and subscribe to Business Agenda and Legal Outlook wherever you get your podcasts.