Standing out in the Trainee Application and Interview Process with Khadija and Nick

Ben McAlary:

Hello and welcome to Ashurst's Legal Outlook. We're back with our final episode of our Trainee miniseries, where Ashurst trainees and junior associates discuss life as a trainee, touching on topics such as developing commercial awareness, the overall training experience, the opportunities available to trainees, what Ashurst's culture is like, and much more. In this episode, I'll be speaking with Khadija Patel and Nick Hwong about the importance of being prepared for the Ashurst trainee application process, including their top tips and potential pitfalls for the all-important partner interview, along with their advice about the best way to stand out from the crowd when applying.

Join me now as we get the inside scoop from Khadija and Nick on the Ashurst training program application process. You you're listening to Ashurst Legal Outlook. Khadija, if you could start, I'm going to ask you both your origin stories. I really wanted the listeners to get to know who you are, where you went to school, what you studied, early career jobs, paint a picture of what it was like before you joined the training program.

Khadija Patel:

Yeah, of course. So I grew up in London, East London, and that's where I went to school before joining UCL to study geography. Originally I had a program with a year abroad, but then that got canceled because of COVID, which meant that I had to go straight into applying for jobs a bit earlier than expected. I pursued a career in law because I was on loads of social mobility programs, which I really enjoyed, and I had a lot of mentors that volunteered their time to talk to me about their industry and about their job, and that really inspired me to pursue an interest in commercial law and become a solicitor.

Ben McAlary:

Awesome. Nick, what's your story?

Nick Hwong:

Yeah, hi guys. My name is Nick, Nick Hwong, and I was born in the UK, but I actually grew up in Hong Kong. So I was there until about year 11, where I made the decision that I wanted to come to the UK, to play rugby, actually. So I managed to get a sports scholarship came over, I managed to get into UCL, studied law there, and through that law society at UCL got interested in a career in commercial law. And then I went on to apply for the vac scheme at Ashurst, where I was lucky enough to get a training contract. I studied the LPC, like Khadija, and eventually joined the firm.

Ben McAlary:

So Nick, why did Ashurst stand out for you?

Nick Hwong:

So I think firstly, I have to talk about Ashurst specialisms. So I do have interests in finance, banking projects as well as real estate, which is where I'm currently sat. So these things are all departments where Ashurst does have extensive experience and does have tier one practices basically. So immediately it kind of stood out from the crowd because of that. But I would also say because my international background, it was really interesting for me to go and actually get to see the firm and see how international, see how diverse it was. And I think one of the benefits of studying at UCL was that we were in London and because we were in London, we could attend a lot of networking events, we could attend a lot of firm events, open days, so on, so forth. So I really did have quite a decent amount of exposure to the firm.

Ben McAlary:

Excellent. Khadija, could you describe why you chose Ashurst and maybe give an understanding of where you currently are within the trainee program?

Khadija Patel:

Yeah, I applied to Ashurst because I felt that the application process allowed me to show my best. I discovered the firm through looking at the top law firms in the UK, and Ashurst is definitely a top one. And I wanted, like Nick, a firm with a global presence. So I was really impressed by how many offices Ashurst had and the opportunities for secondment. I studied geography during peak COVID times and I was accepted to a really good US university, and that was canceled, that placement because of COVID.

So I really wanted to go to a firm with a global presence that would give opportunities to perhaps visit or second or moved to offices abroad. And I just really liked the people at Ashurst. When I was on my vacation scheme, people were very friendly. It was online, so my interaction with the actual office was limited, but even through an online format, the firm really impressed me and that's why I ultimately chose to come and do my training contract here. Where I'm in the process is that I'm a second seater, so I do four rotations as part of my training contract, my first rotation within finance, regulatory or FinReg for short. And now I'm in the securitization team, which is a subgroup in global markets.

Ben McAlary:

Excellent. So you've touched on there the vacation schemes and the training contract. Could you just give a quick overview of the actual processes involved in both?

Khadija Patel:

Yeah, there are two ways to apply for a training contract at Ashurst. One is via a vacation scheme. That's the route that I chose. So I did the winter vacation scheme and there's a winter and summer program and that consists of your application form and then you would do some online testing. And I actually found those really fun and I felt like those were the kind of tests that I could thrive at rather than the really tricky ones that would always kind of stump me. And then you do an online case study and then you do an in-person assessment center. So mine was online because of COVID, but I understand that the process now is that you come in, you get to do an office tour, you get to do a Q&A, and then you do a first stage interview with one member of the early careers team and an associate or senior associate from within the business.

You get a number of different types of questions. You get competency based questions, you get questions just to learn about you and what your motivations for applying to Ashurst or wanting to become a lawyer. And then you get your critical thinking and scenario-based questions too. And then for a direct trading contract, it's pretty much the same process as for a vacation scheme except you go straight to the partner interview. So that is where they kind of really want to understand not only your motivations but your understanding of commercial law and that commercial awareness becomes really important at this stage.

So again, you'll be doing a case study discussion with the partners and you have about 15 minutes to read and review the case study before your interview starts. So the processes are really similar. It's just during the vac scheme, you have the interim vacation scheme before your partner interview, whereas direct training contract, you get to go straight to the partner interview and there's no mini internship in between.

Ben McAlary:

And so Nick, what one did you apply for the vac scheme or the training contract?

Nick Hwong:

So I went through the vac scheme as well, like Khadija.

Ben McAlary:

Thinking about that process for the vac scheme, what sort of advice would you have for future applicants on how to stand out during that process?

Nick Hwong:

There are three things, I think the first one would be not to try and ... I don't want to say fake, but push individuality too much at the expense of being genuine. For example, one thing that I think everybody does is they pick a deal that the firm has done and they talk about it to some depth. It's not worth picking just the biggest deal, the most technical deal in the area that you think sounds cool and interesting. If you're not actually interested in it, find a deal even if it's very vanilla or even if it just shows some of the USPs of Ashurst, use that deal because when you get further down the interview stage, you will get asked why. You will get asked for background, you will get asked why specifically you're interested in that. And if it isn't genuine and if the interest isn't true, for lack of a better word, then that will really show.

So I think that's really important. Another thing would be to definitely try and show off. I remember when I was going through the application procedure, I struggled a lot with trying to show off my achievements and what I've done and putting that down on paper. But it is very important to develop that skill of being able to humblebrag. It's important to get as many achievements across as possible in the written stages of the application process, just to make you stand out. But again, you got to kind of stand up for yourself and push yourself as far as possible. I would say the last thing as well is just a really not minor point, but a very obvious point, but a point that definitely gets missed out a lot on. So just attention to detail. Just make sure you read it four or five, six times, ten times if you need to, print it out, read it on a screen, read it on a different screen, send it to your mom, dad, brother to read over. Just get as many eyes on it as possible to pick out those little details.

Ben McAlary:

Thinking now about the whole process and you get to reflect on it now, are there any particular skills, Nick, that you think would be highly valued by the company that future applicants should try to include?

Nick Hwong:

Yeah, 100%. I think just in general, you'll always get, I think, and what I like to describe as the big three type of questions. So why law, why you, why the firm, and those three are mainly focusing on motivation. So that's the first point. So motivation in law, motivation in Ashurst the firm is really important to demonstrate, to kind of show, because at the end of the day, it's a hard career and you need a lot of motivation to get you through that. And you need to show that you have a genuine interest and a genuine desire to push your career forwards. I think the second one is kind of interrelated. So it's resilience, being able to take it to the chin and keep going. It's not easy being a trainee, well at least for me, you will stumble a lot, you will struggle a lot, but that's the process of being a trainee and that's the process, of any demanding career in general.

So everybody has to experience that. So definitely showing that as well in your application process is very important. And the last one, and I think it's a bit underrated, would be adaptability. And I say this because Khadija, you mentioned before that we have to rotate through different departments. So just based off that, every six months you having to build your trust and relationship with the entire new set of people, you're having to look at documents you've never seen before, you're having to do tasks you've never done before and all these kind of mount up. And I think if there's one thing that I have improved the most on through my short, I've been here less than a year, but if there's one thing I have improved on the most, it would definitely be adaptability.

Ben McAlary:

Fantastic examples and fantastic skills that will take you far. So Khadija, just thinking about then your process, the process that you went through, what would you describe as your greatest strengths or what's say that you can reflect on now and say, "Oh, I really stood out. I really stood out. That really helped me through the recruitment process."

Khadija Patel:

I would echo everything Nick said. So I tried my best to be my biggest champion and to show off my achievements and speak with enthusiasm and pride about the things that I've accomplished. But I actually know one thing that I was told made stand out, and that was that during my first interview, there were some tech issues. Like I said, it was during COVID, and I must have just mentioned, "Oh, I think that this person has dropped off. I'll just wait until he can rejoin."

And apparently the person who interviewed me told me that that is something that could make a candidate crumble very easily, any kind of mishap. And she said some people would just fall apart at sorts of tech issues or if they feel like their interview's gone wrong and I stayed pretty calm. And I think that is one tip I would then say to anyone who's doing any type of interview is to try and stay calm and keep in mind that if you feel like you are being grilled or if you feel like wow, they're asking you really challenging questions, keep in mind that especially at Ashurst, all partners here are lovely.

All people here are lovely. They're not going to completely grill you and fire questions at you and make it really challenging for you if they know you can't handle it and they know you are struggling.

They will do that if they think you can handle it. So they're not going to be really mean. They want to see you and they want to see you at your best. So I'd keep that in mind and keep calm. And I think that was the feedback I received on my first interview. On my partner interview, my positive feedback was that my commercial awareness was very up-to-date. So I would always recommend to make sure that you read the Financial Times on the morning of your interview, read the news, it doesn't even have to be the Financial Times. Be aware of the global events happening around you and be prepared to share your opinion on them.

Ben McAlary:

So Nick, during the recruitment process and your interviews, can you reflect on the types of questions you were asked by either the partner or by a senior associate or HR?

Nick Hwong:

Yeah, so just for clarity, you have two interviews in the application process. One of them is during the assessment day and one of them is at the end of your back scheme or direct PC application. The first one will be with HR and a senior associate and the second one will be with partners. So they're a little different in terms of question types. So with HR and a senior associate, I think it's shorter first of all.

Second of all, I think they focus more on motivation. So again, I'm going to reiterate the big three. So why law, why you, why Ashurst; those are really stressed. In the HR interview, they also ask a lot of competency questions as well. I think they do ask you a situational judgment question or where they give you a situation that you as a trainee might come across and how you would react to it.

And then they do ask general commercial awareness questions. But the main difference here between the HR and associates interview and the partner interview is that the partner interview, you'll have to do a case study on this commercial awareness point. So the senior associates, they might ask something broad whilst with the partner interview, you'll be given a brief and you'll be allowed 15 minutes to read that brief before the interview. And you'll be expected to discuss at length, sometimes obviously depending on the partners you have, but sometimes this portion can take up the majority of your partner interview.

Just for example, I got an FT article on private equity at the point dry powder during the COVID downturn in the economy. So we discussed that for about 30, 45 minutes, I would say, in the partner interview. But largely I felt that the partner interview was more of a discussion and partners had a little more discretion to angle the interview how they wanted to. So there is more flexibility in that one.

Ben McAlary:

Thinking about that partner interview, was that a scary experience for you? Were you particularly nervous?

Nick Hwong:

Yeah, it was probably the most nerve-racking point of the vac scheme. But I would reiterate, and this is something, again with the benefit of hindsight, that I've come to. It's just you don't have to know every granular detail of the FT on that day. You don't have to know the ins and outs of every deal that goes through the firm. What you do have to possess is a broad understanding of commercial topics. Once you have that broad understanding, you'll be able to follow up using those concepts.

So for example, again going back to the article I got, so the specific questions I got on private equity was the kind of social issues behind private equity and why some people might see it as a problem. So with that, for example, if you know private equity is the use of private capital to invest into distressed companies to make a profit and to seek a exit in about five to ten years, you know that these companies are buying them at their worst stage, pumping them full of debt and really pushing the directors of the owners of the company to make as much income as possible in the short term and the next thing. Based off that, you could say it's unsustainable, maybe it doesn't really focus on longevity of these companies. You could say it's bad for economy, but having a broad understanding allows you to get into the detail. So don't over obsess with knowing everything, but just try have breadth of understanding.

Ben McAlary:

And I suspect with a lot of these types of interviews, it's the anticipation really, isn't it, that brings on that anxiety more than the actual reality of it all?

Nick Hwong:

Yeah, yeah. Usually when you get into the interview, it is just discussion, like I said, and it flows really well. Partners are very personable people, they're very nice people. They're not going to be mean to you. They'll nudge you and give you corrections, but they're not going to try give you a blanket statement and shut you down. It's not like that. That's not how this firm is.

Ben McAlary:

All right. We've come to the part of the interview where we're going to go through some quickfire questions. Are you both ready?

Nick Hwong:

Yeah, let's go.

Ben McAlary:

All right, here we go. Favorite holiday destination?

Khadija Patel:

My favorite holiday destination at the moment has got to be Singapore. I really love visiting there. I'd love to go again one day. It's the cleanest place I've ever been to. I'm not a litterbug, so I love that.

Nick Hwong:

I would say Hong Kong for family and food and it'll be Greece for just a beach holiday out in the sun.

Ben McAlary:

That sounds good to me. When it comes to doing work, are you a morning or night person?

Khadija Patel:

I'm definitely a night person. I would love to be a morning person. I see the morning people and I'm so jealous of them, but unfortunately I'm a night owl.

Nick Hwong:

I would nuance that. I don't think I'm a morning or night person. I think I'm an afternoon person because in the morning sometimes if it's too early ... I suppose when you mean morning, you mean do I get up at 6:00 AM, go for a 20-mile run, come back and bang out three SPAs. Yeah, I'm a bit slow in the morning, bit slow at night. So afternoon would probably be where I am.

Ben McAlary:

All right. What's your favorite book and or podcast?

Khadija Patel:

My favorite book is Beloved by Toni Morrison and I generally like reading Toni Morrison. Podcast, at the moment I've been liking The Rest is Football, because I'm not really a big football fan, but I actually think it's quite an interesting sport. So I've been enjoying learning about it through that podcast.

Nick Hwong:

I don't actually listen to that many podcasts. I probably should, but I would say book would be anything written by Mitch Albom, my favorite one would probably be The Time Keeper.

Ben McAlary:

Okay. What's the biggest myth or misconception about being a commercial law trainee?

Khadija Patel:

I think I get the misconception a lot that I would just do admin. Occasionally I do admin, I try and help the team in whatever way I can, but I genuinely feel like I'm a trainee lawyer and I'm learning to become a lawyer. So I think that is the biggest misconception, that it's just kind of smoothing your way through two years and just doing bits of admin tasks here and there. It's definitely not like that.

Nick Hwong:

For me, it would be whenever I speak to a person who, well isn't a lawyer, they always say "You must argue a lot." I don't argue a lot, I don't.

Ben McAlary:

If you could have a coffee meeting with anyone dead or alive, who would it be?

Khadija Patel:

That's a really hard one, but shamelessly at the moment, my favorite person is Taylor Swift, so all probably be Taylor Swift.

Nick Hwong:

For me it would be David Pocock. I think he had such an interesting journey. He played for the Wallabies for, I don't know, almost a decade. And then now he's member of Parliament in Australia. So he plays a leading role in politics now and obviously he does a lot of humanitarian work in Zimbabwe as well. So I just think he's had a really interesting career, notwithstanding the fact that he was a professional rugby player.

Ben McAlary:

Excellent. And finally, Khadija, how would you describe Nick in three words?

Khadija Patel:

That's a really good question. So I would describe Nick as enthusiastic. He is always really enthusiastic whenever you have a chat with him about what work he's doing or about his training contracts so far. I'd also say Nick is really friendly and really gregarious, which is lovely. So it's always nice to catch up with Nick over lunch. And then finally I think that Nick is a bit of a gym nut, so he goes to the gym much more than me. So I'm always learning about how he kind of motivates himself to keep going.

Nick Hwong:

Okay. Firstly, I would say I think you're a really happy person. Whenever I see you, you always got a smile on your face regardless of the situation. So you could have worked till 2:00 AM doing some reports with FinReg, but I would always see you smiling and you'd always be happy. And you bring a good energy to wherever you go. I would say just off the fact that you've done seats in FinReg and securitization now, I would say you're probably one of the smarter trainees in the cohort. Just I couldn't do those seats and I would really, really struggle if I did them. And last one I would say I think you do seem like a really big team player. So from the stories I've heard from you about your experiences, it sounds like you've been in seats where there haven't been many trainings, picking up the brunt of the work, even if that means you have to work till really late at night, I feel like you do that quite a bit.

Ben McAlary:

Well, they were excellent responses. I've got one final question to finish our conversation here today, and I'm going to ask you both to answer this one. What would be your biggest tip or resource that you think would help future trainees prepare for their interview? Perhaps Khadija, you could go first.

Khadija Patel:

My biggest tip would be to reread your application before your interview because you might be asked questions on it.

Nick Hwong:

So for me it would be the FT, but it would be to focus on the comment section. Obviously read the article as well. But the comment section is really useful because it just shows opposite sides of opinions and people always arguing and kind of debating each other in there. And I think that's just really good preparation for seeing the range of opinions that are there for different commercial topics that you could be asked on. And I feel like it also helps to develop your own understanding and your own opinions on these topics, which will undoubtedly help you in the partner interviews.

Ben McAlary:

Khadija and Nick, it's been a wonderful conversation. I've really enjoyed it and hopefully our listeners have as well. Thank you very much for your time.

Nick Hwong:

Thanks, man. Cheers.

Khadija Patel:

Thank you.

Ben McAlary:

Thank you for listening. To hear more Ashurst podcasts, including our dedicated channel on All Things ESG, please visit ashurst.com/podcasts. To ensure you don't miss any future episodes, subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast platform. And while you're there, please feel free to keep the conversation going and leave us a rating or a review. Thanks again for listening, and goodbye for now.