The power of commercial awareness with Saba

Ben McAlary:

Hello and welcome to Ashurst's Legal Outlook. We're back for another episode in our miniseries where Ashurst's trainees and junior associates discuss life as a trainee, touching on a host of different topics, including interview and application advice, the overall trainee experience and culture at Ashurst, secondment opportunities, and much more. In this episode, I'll be speaking with Saba Nasrolahi about the important topic of commercial awareness. We explore how to develop commercial awareness, its importance to a career in law, and how it can be applied with great effect during both the application and early stages of the trainee program. Join me now as we get the inside scoop on commercial awareness with Saba. You're listening to Ashurst's Legal Outlook.

Saba, it's so good to have you on the podcast.

Saba Nasrolahi:

Thank you so much for having me. Really looking forward to it.

Ben McAlary:

Firstly, I'd love listeners to get a bit of an understanding about you, about your background, about your education, where you went to university, basically what's your origin story up to you applying for the Ashurst trainee program?

Saba Nasrolahi:

Yeah, sure. So maybe just going back to at school in sixth form, I actually did mainly science A-levels,I did maths, physics, chemistry, English, so not the classic law subjects. But I did end up applying to law and getting a place to study at King's College London, which was absolutely fantastic. And then I applied to Ashurst in my first year for what was their first year vacation scheme. Ended up being the Ashurst campus ambassador for King's as well. So I had that longstanding relationship with the firm, then did my legal practice course and started at the firm in September 2022.

Ben McAlary:

Fantastic. So a few years ago. Where are you actually up to in the trainee program?

Saba Nasrolahi:

I'm now in my final seat. So a bit of an overview of what I've done so far, my first seat was in the global loans team where I mainly looked at fund finance and specialty finance, but got that broad range of all the kind of financial work streams that Ashurst offers. And then in my second team, I joined the digital economy team. And in that department, I got a broad range of exposure to what we do at the firm. And I think one of the USPs of Ashurst being that we house all these different streams of the digital economy in one department. So I looked at IP, data protection and cybersecurity, telecoms, also looking at FinTech clients as well as emerging technology, which was excellent.

And then from that, I actually did six months at a leading investment bank as one of our secondment opportunities where I worked in their digital banking and wealth management team. So a good overlap of my finance seat and my digital seat. And now, I'm in my final seat in the financial regulatory team. So bringing in that advisory element to the financial products that I would've been familiar with at my secondment. So a very finance, techy, secondment kind of training contract experience that I've had, and I'll be qualifying into the digital economy team in September.

Ben McAlary:

So your story's a little bit different to the other trainees being interviewed for this series so far in that there maybe on their first or second seat, and you are on your fourth. You've got a much clearer understanding of where you want to go. I'm really interested now in how you've been able to apply a theme that has come up a few times in these conversations, and that is commercial awareness. So we know that you guys were all interested and had a desire to work within commercial law, but I'm wondering, for the benefit of our listeners, what is commercial awareness and why is it so important?

Saba Nasrolahi:

Yeah, definitely. Commercial awareness to me, I think it has two layers that candidates should always be aware of, is what impacts law firms and what impacts our clients. And it's always really important to understand that two-pronged approach because law firms as well are businesses. And understanding how Ashurst works as a business is part of commercial awareness.

And then going to what impacts means, it covers a wide range of things, social, political, technological, environmental, legal issues. And I think at the crux of it, commercial awareness is awareness and not necessarily a knowledge and expertise of the ins and outs of each part of the law or each sector. It's about understanding how businesses work and what might be impacting businesses.

So a lot of the work we do at Ashurst is navigating clients through the changing legal and regulatory commercial landscape. And the most exciting and challenging, rewarding work comes from where there isn't necessarily an answer at the end, that that isn't the output that we're doing. We're helping businesses navigate, look at what they need to do internally, what the output is for their customers. And that is essentially what commercial awareness is. And throughout my training contract at Ashurst, we've been particularly focused on making sure you develop that skill on producing work that is useful to a business and how they might navigate whatever situation or issue that they're working through.

Ben McAlary:

It's such a clear answer, and you've spoken about it so eloquently. I'm just wondering now, did these skills come naturally to you or was it something that you had to teach yourself as you progressed through the trainee program?

Saba Nasrolahi:

Yeah, and I think it's a great question because a lot of applicants will look at the terms commercial awareness and be like, "How do I build this up? How do I get to the point where I'm able to talk about what a business might want to do? And ultimately, I think it comes down to building it up really organically. At the end of the day, you're applying for a training contract.

You're here to train, to learn, develop, and they call it commercial awareness and not commercial knowledge. And like I said, even as I progress through my legal career, the most interesting work is where there isn't necessarily an answer. So it's being able to problem solve and look at problems really holistically. I always bring it back to that answer with my experience at math, you get more marks for the working out than you do for the answer. And it's about building that skill of problem solving and holistic thinking.

I think the tip I give to everyone is build it organically. And what I mean by that is find a topic that you are genuinely interested in without even thinking about law firms, applications, anything like that. What is it that you look at when you go on the news that you want to follow? For me, even when I was at school, before I started thinking about applying to law firms, I would always go on BBC News and click on that technology sector button and just see what was happening in the technology sector because I found that really interesting. And then I started reading about what was happening in that sector, gaining an understanding of what was going on, what kind of businesses were involved in that sector, what problems were they facing. And then from that organically, I started reading more complicated resources like the Financial Times or looking at podcasts from certain banks and businesses to see what they were talking about to their customers.

So I think it's about looking at it as a journey. It's not something you can study overnight and understand. It's something that I'm still growing now in my seat. And as a law firm, we always have these regulatory updates, meetings with our clients to understand what's going on in the industry. It's not a one-stop show. Commercial awareness is things you're building up time after time.

Ben McAlary:

Couldn't agree more. And you touched on a few of those resources and publications that you look at, including the Financial Times, which has been mentioned on the podcast series before.

Can you recommend any other key resources or publications other than the Financial Times or the BBC website?

Saba Nasrolahi:

Yeah, and I think it will often come up organically. When you're looking at a certain topic that you're interested, you'll almost see yourself navigating to certain resources. Personally, I had a great interest in technology, and from BBC News, I started understanding how different regulators were looking at technology. And one of the resources I used is LinkedIn and actually following each of the regulators, the ICO, the IPO, looking at what official resources they were publishing because that gives you such a good snapshot of the trajectory of the regulatory and legal environment in a really accessible way.

And again, just looking at those resources like LinkedIn, the firm publishes so much great material where we've been delving into law and we're producing an output that is really accessible to our clients. So looking at the resources that we're putting out to our clients, looking at what perhaps more our senior management are posting on their LinkedIn, what are they identifying as key issues, that's such a great resource. At Ashurst, we have our Data Bytes newsletter that looks at developments in data protection law, and each of those updates are summarized, a key paragraph. And that's the level that you should be looking at because you're looking for holistic development and holistic understanding of how the legal and commercial world is developing rather than having to go too much in depth on any one topic. We also have the banking industry insights, all these resources. So I think make use of what a law firm publishes. We have all our briefings and insights on our website as well.

And another resource that I found really useful, particularly when I was at university, is podcasts. And I know I listened to podcast on the Ashurst website where we were talking about Ashurst Advance and our NewLaw delivery. And I found that really useful because ultimately it was bite-sized. I could listen to it on my commute to university. But also understanding how people talk about commercial awareness or talk about issues is a way to build your commercial awareness because ultimately you want to be at a position where you are able to have a conversation with someone about what you've learned or what you understand is going on. And you'll have questions in that conversation, and that's part of commercial awareness. What kind of questions would you ask? A lot of being a lawyer is asking the right questions as well. So that's the kind of skills that you're building up from those resources.

Ben McAlary:

I love that you mentioned the term organic because I think that is so important. And to have an interest in a topic, it almost feels like when you are organically searching and organically reading about a particular topic, it then just becomes so natural to then want to seek out more information about it. So I loved that example. I'm just wondering whether you could then put into practice some of this commercial awareness skills that you're talking about and what does that look like on a or how has it impacted a case or project that you've actually worked on?

Saba Nasrolahi:

Yeah, sure. And maybe just going back to that organic point as well is that when I say organically, there's 100% a topic that you enjoy looking at and you might not think it's relevant to the law. I think sometimes I bring up the examples of fashion or football and you think, "How is that relevant? I enjoy reading about that in my spare time. How am I going to link that to understanding what a law firm and their clients do?"

But if you think about it in that kind of organic way, if you have fashion, start thinking about maybe if there's ethical considerations in supply chains, how is that impacted in different parts of the world? What then will our clients have to think about when they're writing their policies and procedures about looking at their policies when it comes to their supply chains and manual labor. And linking it back to the law firm and for example, the work that we do with Anti-Slavery International and looking at those ethical and governance considerations from a pro bono aspect as well. So even there with that example, you can see I've taken something that you might not think is relevant, "Oh, I really like reading about fashion," and you can link it to what a business might be doing and how we might be advising and helping clients. So yeah, I think that would be a practical example.

And then in my day to day, from the work that I've done at this firm, I think I can give two examples looking at what impacts a law firm and then what impacts clients. So from a law firm aspect, before I joined, I was reading a lot about how the pandemic was spurring on a wider practical approach to the execution process in transactions such as an increased acceptance of electronic signatures as well as the use of platforms like DocuSign. Ashurst was also focusing on innovation in legal tech with lawyers and technologists working together collaboratively and providing value to clients.

That's something that I read about as an applicant and was like, "Oh, this is so interesting. And it's great to see that the law firm thinking and being future-thinking about products for their clients or platforms for their clients." And in my first seat as a trainee, I was responsible for the execution process of a lot of banking transactions where I would use my knowledge of the DocuSign process, take ownership of that process, have calls with clients to explain how they need to navigate certain parts of the execution process. So that is an example of having an awareness of a technology that we use, why our clients would want to use it, and then also then as a trainee, explaining and using that process.

And then another example would be the business and client impact is when I was in the digital economy team, I was part of a really great sub-sea cable project where we had to react to certain political disruptions in the region, and I'd read about something in the news and go into work and work with the team to react to it, to navigate our clients through very topical issues that were affecting the region. So that's an example of how things you read in the news directly impact what you are doing in your day-to-day work.

Ben McAlary:

And you must feel so proud when that happens too, that you're putting into practice all that knowledge you've gleaned from just being commercially aware of that particular issue. It must be very rewarding.

Saba Nasrolahi:

Yeah, it's so enjoyable to be able to understand the mechanics of what's going on in a transaction, but also what you've done is you've just laid a base layer for you to learn from. My training contract at Ashurst has been such an incredibly rewarding experience with learning from so many different and challenging issues that come up. And the commercial awareness is this base level that I've then built on my knowledge, which I've then built on my expertise in certain areas. And I'm only coming to the end of my training contract and starting on my journey as a qualified solicitor where I'm going to build that up even more.

So I think it comes back to that point of commercial awareness is a journey. Things are changing all the time, and having that awareness, particularly at the moment, looking at AI and emerging technology, that's developing all the time and how we react to it and how we might advise to it might be different than it was when I started my training contract. So understanding that it's a journey and that we are looking ahead at the journey that our clients are going to be going on.

Ben McAlary:

Fantastic. Thank you so much, Saba. Let's now move to the quickfire questions part of our interview. I'm just going to fire off five questions and you get to answer these as quickly as possible. How does that sound?

Saba Nasrolahi:

Sounds great.

Ben McAlary:

All right, let's go. What's your favorite book and/or podcast?

Saba Nasrolahi:

As I said before, I absolutely love podcasts because it gives that conversational element to a topic so you can really start thinking about it and asking yourself questions while people discuss it. I think at the moment, particularly being in the financial regulations team, I've been looking at our Ashurst Legal Outlook podcasts. I think recently we've been looking at the senior managers and certification regime and looking at the more challenging aspects of that regime, the spread of requirements that are coming from the regulators and the conversation where it comes to that interesting one strike and your out approach. Linking back to the work is thinking about those legal and regulatory issues and then thinking about, "Okay, if I was a client, what would I be asking right now?" And seeing those questions discussed and answered is incredibly useful.

Ben McAlary:

Excellent response. And there's always time for a bit of cross-promotion, so thank you for that. Where is the best place to get lunch around Ashurst's London office?

Saba Nasrolahi:

We're right next to Spitalfields Market where there's lots of different food stalls that trainees and different members of the team can go and try out. And it's a fun experience just trying out a different stall, and it's a good environment, very fun.

Ben McAlary:

Now, apart from commercial awareness skills, do you have any hidden talents or skills? And if so, what are they?

Saba Nasrolahi:

Yeah, slight reluctance, but I do do a little bit of classical opera singing. I always bring it up and I think sometimes people want a demonstration, but I don't think it's the most...

Ben McAlary:

I won't force you to do that on the podcast. Very good though. Very impressive. Can you share a surprising perk that you get for working at Ashurst?

Saba Nasrolahi:

So we do have a bar in the third floor of our offices where we get two free drinks every Thursday, and that's really great. In the summertime, we get to go on the rooftop terrace and we have summer barbecues and parties. And that's a really great way to socialize with the wider firm as well.

Ben McAlary:

And for our final quickfire question, what's the biggest myth or misconception about being a commercial law trainee at Ashurst?

Saba Nasrolahi:

That's a great question. I think a lot of times applicants have that perception of being a trainee is a purely administrative task. And whilst there are parts of the job where you are doing admin roles, a lot of being a trainee is getting really stuck in at Ashurst. They give you such a great baseline of training in each seat that you're in. But one of the reasons I really wanted to train here is because of that level of high responsibility that they give you, and that's ultimately what's training you to be an excellent lawyer and I think really distinguishes you from being able to manage your own transactions, providing your own view on certain topics, adding that value.

Some of the examples, linking back to what we've spoken about as commercial awareness, where I mentioned thinking about it as a maths problem and you get more for your working out than the answer sometimes. And I would ask a list of questions and we'd look at a contract and we'd be like, they'd explain the answers to three or four of my questions and for a couple of them they'd be like, "That's a really good point. Let's integrate that in. That's a great question. Let's go talk to the client about that." So even at the start of my seat, that question asking skill was something that could be a value add and opened up doors to me being more involved in the transaction.

And another thing is when I was in my second seat in digital economy, I'd been building my interest and understanding of AI and its application to different parts of the law that we'd advise our clients on. In particular, I was looking at AI and IP and I had the opportunity to co-author articles with our UK head of IP partner and working with him to publish materials that went on the World IP Review and the World Trademark Review and as well as our website. So I think that really demonstrates that as a trainee, you are really there to get stuck in, add value, think about how these issues are impacting clients, add your own thoughts. Those questions that you had in the back of your mind are just as valuable to our clients and provide an insight. And then working with senior partners on being able to develop that into an output that's really useful to our clients. So you really get stuck in at every part of your training contract.

And I think that really differentiates Ashurst as well. Being able to work directly with partners and having that input is really special. And it really dispels that myth that a trainee is just looking at those admin tasks. That really isn't what it is. And I think it goes back to what commercial awareness is and why we're asking for it. So trainees can have that base level to get really stuck in into these transactions and deals that we're working with.

Ben McAlary:

It's such an important misconception to debunk, and I think you've done it perfectly. The value that trainees can add is immense, and you gave a perfect example so thank you for that.

Before I let you go though, I wanted to ask you if you had one piece of short advice, like a bumper sticker message to students who were thinking about the trainee program at Ashurst to help them integrate some of this commercial awareness into their everyday life and to develop those commercial awareness skills that you spoke about?

Saba Nasrolahi:

Yeah, sure. I think the end goal is prepare to be at a point where you're able to have a conversation about the things that you're interested in, that you're reading about in the news. Once you're at that point and being able to engage in a conversation in a back and forth about certain legal issues or commercial issues or certain activities that clients might be doing in different sectors, you're at a point where you're able to then discuss what the next step will be. That's what the training contract is there for. Because we're a forward-thinking law firm, we're looking at what comes next for our clients. So go back and think of that base level of what questions would I ask? What opinions might I have? And that's what commercial awareness is and how you can build it. And then that's why it's being integrated into your training contract

Ben McAlary:

Question everything. I love it. Saba, it's been so good to speak to you. Thank you very much for your insights, and all the best in your career.

Saba Nasrolahi:

Thank you for having me.

Ben McAlary:

Thank you for listening. To hear more Ashurst podcasts, including our dedicated channel on all things ESG, please visit ashurst.com/podcasts. To ensure you don't miss any future episodes, subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. And while you're there, please feel free to keep the conversation going and leave us a rating or a review. Thanks again for listening, and goodbye for now.