Trainee secondments with Divya and Aoife

Ben McAlary:

Hello and welcome to Ashurst's Legal Outlook and the next episode in our trainee miniseries where Ashurst's trainees and junior associates discuss life as a trainee, touching on topics such as developing commercial awareness, the overall training experience, including the culture at Ashurst, and the opportunities available to trainees such as secondments, the topic of today's discussion.

In this episode, you'll hear from Junior Associates Aoife Weir and Divya Deivanayagam, who will share their trainee secondments that ran across six months at the end of their trainee experience. At Ashurst, we offer our trainees the chance to do either a client secondment or an international secondment at one of our offices outside of the UK.

And in this episode you'll hear about the differences between them, an overview of the process for actually getting these opportunities and some insights into what a day in the life of a trainee doing these secondments is like. Join me now as we get the inside scoop on trainee secondments with Aoife and Divya. You're listening to Ashurst's Legal Outlook. Divya and Aoife. Thank you so much for joining the podcast.

Divya Deivanayagam:

Thanks for having us.

Aoife Weir:

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Ben McAlary:

Maybe Divya, if you could start, I'd really be interested in your origin story. What has your early career been like? Even going back to subjects you're interested in school, what you did at university, where you studied, but take us through a bit of a career journey, education journey to the stage that you're at today.

Divya Deivanayagam:

Sure. I am originally from Sri Lanka and I grew up there. I went to school there, did a lot of the sciences growing up actually, as you typically find in South Asian countries. And realized towards the end of my schooling years that I wasn't particularly interested in any career paths that science had to offer me. And I lent more towards my extracurricular interests, which were at the time debating, Model UN, et cetera, and look to what was the most transferable dynamic degree I could do that would give me the most options after I graduated.

Then that's how I landed on doing a law degree for which I moved to the UK. I did my law degree in London at King's College. And I always say that it's the university I went to that lead to me being at Ashurst today because when you go to a London University and read law, you are exposed to all the different law firms or chambers who are prolific and incredible at what they do. And that exposure creates interest. And you are in the heart of the hub of where all big commercial deals happen, not just in the UK but in the world.

And so, it's through King's and interacting with Ashurst at a very early stage. I was an Ashurst's campus ambassador at uni. I got to meet a lot of people from the firm very early on, which made me apply for their summer vacation scheme and then I just converted that into a training contract. I've been very fortunate to have an early engagement with Ashurst that resulted in me doing the training contract.

Ben McAlary:

Great overview. Aoife, did you want to share your origin story as well?

Aoife Weir:

Yeah, of course. I grew up in Northern Ireland and that's where I did my education as well. I went to secondary school in Northern Ireland and also studied at university in Northern Ireland as well. I'm quite different to Divya in the sense that I was always drawn to the typical subjects that lawyers like, so the likes of English, history and politics. And I think for me anyway, when it came to law, I think there was two pivotal points that stand out for me as to why I then chose to study law at university.

I undertook a work experience where I shadowed a barrister and was able to attend the lacks of the magistrates courts and the royal courts of justice in Belfast. And then separately, I also participated in an extracurricular activity called the Bar Mock Trial Competition. And so, for anyone who doesn't know what that is, essentially it's a mock trial which students participate in to learn about the legal system in a competitive manner. You have the likes of acting barristers, acting witnesses, acting clients. And essentially you build up a criminal case and then act it out in a criminal trial in front of a real judge.

And I think that experience was super important and also probably that's where my interest in law really came from. I got a real flavor for the likes of debating and public speaking, but also gave me a small but real insight into the legal justice system. Ultimately those experiences led me to then study law at university. And then whilst at university I did the degree, but also during that time I also undertook a number of further work experiences. I did a two-week internship at a local law firm in Belfast and then also did a number of back schemes working in Dublin as well. I think those practical experiences ultimately led me to want to pursue a career in commercial law.

And similar to Divya, I attended loads of legal law events whilst in my final year at university. And having spoken to people who work in law firms and trainees and about their experience and what it actually means to be a solicitor, I ultimately then decided that I think commercial law is something I want to pursue as a career. I guess the rest is history in the sense that I came upon Ashurst, really liked the culture of the firm. And then decided to apply for a training contract and was successful in my application.

Ben McAlary:

Thank you both for sharing. I think it's important now that we talk about the fact that you guys have both finished the trainee program. Unlike other episodes we've had in the series, you both are now junior associates. As the name suggests for this title, we're going to be talking about secondments and secondments as part of, or the last step on that Ashurst trainee program. First of all, I think it's important that we ask the question, Aoife, maybe you could tell us what is a secondment?

Aoife Weir:

A secondment is essentially when an employee is assigned to a new position within an organization or within another company. At Ashurst there's two types of secondments you can have. There's an international secondment where you still work at Ashurst but work in a different firm, generally in another office in somewhere else in Europe or Asia or another part of the world. And then you also have a client secondment. You actually leave the Ashurst organization and go work for a client of Ashurst. And generally speaking it's for a temporary amount of time. In Divya and I's case we went on secondment for six months whilst in our final seat during the training contract.

Ben McAlary:

Is that always the case? Is it the last seat in your training contract that you go on a secondment or can it happen at any time?

Divya Deivanayagam:

Yeah, so it's not necessarily in your final seat. I think most people who go on secondment tend to go towards the end of their training contract. But that's not to say you can't apply in your second, third or even your... Well, I don't think they do the first seat, but the second or third seat, I think you can still apply. But ultimately, I think by the time you get to your final seat, you have all the skills you've already built during the first 18 months. And that's why typically speaking, people tend to go towards the end of the training contract process.

Ben McAlary:

And just so we've got a bit of an understanding, so there's two types of secondments. Did you both do the client secondments or did one of you could do the international one?

Divya Deivanayagam:

I did the international one, so Aoife was at a client and I was in one of our foreign offices.

Ben McAlary:

Excellent. And so Divya, how did you actually apply for the trainee secondment? What was the process involved?

Divya Deivanayagam:

Sure. Around the time, it's a very internal process obviously because totally this, we're speaking of this in the context of the training contract. And around the time you need to put down your choices for which seat you'd like to do next because we have four seats that we do over two years. Graduate recruitment HR will send out an email publicizing that this is the list of secondments available for that next rotation. And as we've just discussed, it's split into client secondment offerings and international offerings. And they tell you which kind of department or area of law that you're going to be practicing during that secondment.

You have the opportunity to then assess options, see at what stage of the training contract you are at, have you explored all the seats that you've wanted to do in London thus far? Is there a particular reason you want to go on this secondment? And there is an application process. They let you know what the comments are available as the first step. And the second step is once you've chosen which one you want to go for, there's a small application process where you have to polish up your CV for the seats that you've just done for your training contract thus far. And a short application form with two questions. One is about why this client or why this foreign office, why this type of secondment? And the second one being why that particular practice area as well. Because often it sometimes feeds into people's choices of where they want to qualify once they've completed their training contract.

Sometimes people double up. For example, I did projects and energy transition as my second seat as a trainee. And that was also the same department I sat in when I went to our Tokyo office on my international secondment. I doubled up because I had a clear area of interest. I knew that may be where I potentially wanted to qualify. And so that made sense for me.

Ben McAlary:

Excellent. Let's dig a little bit deeper into your secondment in the Tokyo office. What was it like? Tell us all about it.

Divya Deivanayagam:

I think it was incredible. Well, minus the fact that I was away from all my friends in London, one of the best times of my training contract overall, really the cherry on the cake is how I'd call it. I'd never been to Japan before, so Tokyo was a completely new world for me. I didn't have any idea really of what to expect apart from what I've heard from everyone else. The Tokyo secondment is one, we've been running for I think 20 plus years, so there's actually a lot of people around the firm who've done it previously as a part of their training contracts. It's quite nice. There's a bit of a network of ex-Tokyo trainees who I got to speak to in the lead up to going and get advice from, top tips from.

And then once I got there, the Tokyo office is a much smaller office compared to London, which is one of our bigger, almost second HQ offices. And I think working in a small office in a very different environment and working culture is an eyeopening experience. I think you need to make sure you have an open mind that you are being mindful of cultural practices that you may not exactly have been aware of.

But I had a great experience. The team there was so welcoming, so inclusive. I think it was a testament to Ashurst having a global culture, that it's not just in the London office that we'd experienced thus far. But when I went to Tokyo as well, the team there were exactly the way I'd expect the team in London to be. And I really got to immerse myself into some interesting work. Due to the small office element, I ended up getting a lot more responsibility than I usually would have as a fourth seat trainee.

Ben McAlary:

And how much of the language did you pick up?

Divya Deivanayagam:

I will say it is one of the tougher languages in the world that I've come across personally. I think by the end of the six months I was able to get around, order a meal, ask for a receipt. If you're traveling, if I was traveling and stuck somewhere, I'd probably be able to find my way back. But I think the advent of technology, I just really appreciated that so much while I was out there.

We have Google Maps, we have Google Translate, which really helped get us through times where there was serious communication barriers. Because Japan is one of those countries where it's not as globalized as the rest of the world, so the use of English is just not as prevalent. But yeah, I think it really puts your communication skills as a lawyer to attest as well because you are communicating with clients whose first language isn't necessarily English. And we always go on about how lawyers need to communicate well. And this really does hold that skill because you need to be concise, you need to be clear, you need to be simple with the words you use and not over-complicate things. I think I classify myself as a basic Japanese speaker, but a much better English speaker since that experience.

Ben McAlary:

Aoife, on the flip side, so you did a client secondment. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Aoife Weir:

Yeah, so I undertook a six-month client secondment working at BP. And so I sat in their gas and low carbon energy team. Yeah. I had an extremely positive experience and really glad that that's where I chose to go in my final seat. I think for me anyway, the reason why I wanted to undertake a client secondment is by the time I was in my third seat at Ashurst, I was in the corporate transactions team and I was very aware that that's where I wanted to qualify long-term.

And so when the BP secondment came up and offered further transactional experience for me it was a perfect fit because I wanted to qualify into a transactional team. And then undertaking a client secondment in a transactional team as well really made sense to me at that time. As I said, I've sat in the gas and low carbon energy team, so I worked on a lot of hydrogen and offshore wind projects, which I didn't actually previously have experience in whilst at Ashurst. Again, it just really allowed me to develop my transactional experience, particularly in the energy sector, which Ashurst already has a lot of expertise in.

And also it sounds cliche, but everyone always talks about commercial awareness and commercial understanding. And I really do think from that six month experience I have developed those skills better. I hope to continue to develop them now that I'm back at Ashurst. But I think when you work directly inside a client, you really do come to better appreciate what they actually are interested in, what drives them, what's important to them and why they make decisions. What's the reason for the decisions they make and what ultimately they expect from their lawyers in private practice. I think those are key skills I didn't fully appreciate until I did the client secondment.

And then just generally, I loved the team I was in at BP. I worked with around 10 to 15 lawyers. And most of them had either came from private practice, so they had been through a similar experience but had since then decided to go in-house. And so it was really great just to have conversations with those people, learn from them, understand a bit about their background and why they've chose to decide to work with a client instead of private practice. And so, ultimately a very positive experience. I've took a lot away from it and I've also been able to develop those professional relationships outside of Ashurst at such a junior stage in my career.

Ben McAlary:

Yeah, absolutely. What sort of support did you have then when you're actually sitting within the BP office. You're there, you've got your BP and Ashurst hat on. What's that support like from an Ashurst perspective? What does it look like? How much of it is there?

Aoife Weir:

Yeah, I think that's a really good point because something I was definitely a bit concerned about as a trainee, what would this mean if I left Ashurst? And then was I suddenly exiled and working for a client and no one spoke to me? But it couldn't be farther from what I thought what it was going to be like. Before I went on secondment, I had a conversation with Michael Burns who is the relationship partner at BP, and so he was able to give me a bit of guidance around secondment process and how valuable it is personally for your own professional career.

I also was able to speak to a lot of ex-secondees who had either been at BP or other client secondments and really gauge from them what the value of the secondment would be, how I could interact with Ashurst before, during and after the secondment to get the best out of it. And then also whilst on secondment, I had monthly check-ins with the business development manager at Ashurst, so they would just check in with me and make sure everything was running as it should be.

And I think something to remember is the secondment has to work for you as much as it has to work for the client. Obviously the client wants someone who's hardworking and motivated to deliver for them. But equally, Ashurst wants you as a trainee or whatever level you go on secondment to get as much out of it as possible. And so having those check-ins really allowed me to express my interests in the type of work I was getting involved in, what areas I was hoping to get more experience in whilst on secondment.

I really valued Ashurst's approach in setting up those regular meetings and then also after the secondment, having a debrief of what my experience, what went well, what I think Ashurst as a firm could potentially improve on to expand on the client experience for them as well. It was a really positive experience and Ashurst was super supportive whilst I was on secondment so I was very lucky in that sense.

Ben McAlary:

Divya, I can imagine as you are preparing for your secondment in the months and weeks leading up to it before you left to another country, you'll have been very excited and anxious and just in full preparation mode. How did you go about that and what did Ashurst provide for you to prepare for that? Especially as you are traveling to an overseas country, what do they do in terms of accommodation? Talk us through that.

Divya Deivanayagam:

I think doing a secondment, an international secondment is the easiest way to logistically move abroad because a lot of the burdensome admin is taken out of your hands really helpfully. And the firm is really supportive in that. I've done the move once before when I moved to the UK for my higher education. Moving abroad wasn't a new phenomenon, but this was a much smoother process because it's a part of the international secondment package that you know where you'll be staying, the accommodation is sorted for and funded by the firm. They also assist with making sure your visa is sorted. There's a process in place for that.

And we actually run our secondment processes slightly earlier to give enough time for the international secondees to make sure we have all our visas in time. And there's also a daily stipend that you get that is pro rata based on living costs and expenses in the country that you're going to, which is really handy as that the Tokyo office has a different policy in terms of spending reimbursements in the way London would, so that daily stipend helps cover that off. Logistically speaking, there's a lot of support for you. You know where you're living, you know how you're going to get there. You know that you can get in there with your visa. Those initial roadblocks are all really sorted for you by the firm, which is super helpful.

Generally speaking, if you're doing an international secondment, there'll usually be a WhatsApp group chat somewhere with all the other international secondees who are going to that particular city from other law firms. Usually it's the trainees who are there before you, your predecessors add you onto to that chat. And you also get given this friendship circle that you go into it with. It's all very prepared and I think it does take a lot of the edge all when you are moving across the world.

Ben McAlary:

And thinking about reentry now, Divya, what's that like coming back to the London office? What was that reentry like?

Divya Deivanayagam:

Yeah, I think that the cultures are just so different. It sounds crazy and it's almost as we're making a joke, but the little bow that we used to do every day, all the time at the supermarket store when we're checking out, politely queuing everywhere, which is not the case or the experience in the London Underground. It's just those little daily routine lifestyle changes, it's just a bit different. The lifestyle in Tokyo is very different to London. I think that's the immediate shift that you realize in terms of as soon as I returned.

And then I think beyond that, I was fortunate enough, I was almost coming back into my preexisting life. Six months is just that sweet spot I think where you're not away for too long and you're still in touch with people and you just get to re-assimilate. But I think it is those daily routine cultural differences that was a bit... It took a week to be like, "Right, I'm in a different place now."

Ben McAlary:

And Aoife, thinking about the end of your secondment, what were the biggest takeaways for you for your career development and your career and professional growth?

Aoife Weir:

Yeah, I think it probably goes back to the same point around commercial awareness and commercial understanding. I know when you apply for a training contract, that's a topic that definitely comes up in the interview process and people talk about it. And you have to think of an answer that you don't really understand what it actually means until you work directly in a client. Or maybe that's just something that comes through time, but I don't think I necessarily had that skill until I went on my client secondment. I think that's one of the big and key learnings I took away from the client secondment, being able to fully appreciate the client's business and what they want from their lawyers and to bring that back to Ashurst is a really good thing.

I think on a personal/professional note, I fully appreciate that working somewhere like Ashurst gives you the opportunities to do the likes of client and international secondments. And it's something again, I fully appreciate now that I've went through the process and the experience. Not all law firms offer trainees or associates or senior associates the opportunity to go and work for a client for six months or even longer. That's something I'll take away from the experience as well.

And then also again, it probably just comes back to the people I've met through that six month experience. I had a really extremely supportive supervisor whilst I was on secondment at BP itself. She really wanted me to get as much out of the experience as possible. And she was able to ask me things like, "What skills you want to develop? If it's presentational skills, I want you to teach training at a lunch meeting, for example." It's things like that I've taken away from the experience and skills that I didn't necessarily have until I went on client secondment that I think have really developed my career at such a junior stage. And I hope to work on and over the coming months and years.

Divya Deivanayagam:

Just to supplement Aoife's response, I think doing the secondment is almost as if you zoom out of your life as a trainee and your training contract and you hear about these concepts of how you are in an international law firm. We have a global network and we have these incredible Fortune 500 clients let's say.

But then when you get the opportunity to go and have a lived experiences in those parts of the business, you actually get a taste for everything that's almost advertised to you before you apply to the training contract, as Aoife said, and it enhances your training. When you think of tangible skills and vocational skills.. It really supplements your training really well because you're getting an opportunity to step out of your current shoes for six months, meet these new people, learn from these new people, build your professional network and just appreciate what the firm does on a broader level to your day-to-day life as a trainee in London, as you rotate through seeds, build an interest, build your skills. I think that variety and flavor just really enriches the training experience as a whole as well.

And yeah, I think you get what you applied for. I always as someone with an international background have always said, "Oh, I want to do international work." And there's plenty of opportunity to do that in London when you work on massive international deals and work with loads of different local council. But it's also completely different, more richer experience when you're in an office in Japan and you're also working with our South Korean office and you are now Singapore office. And you are just having that moment of, "Okay, I'm in Asia, this is still a part of Ashurst, this is the work we do here. And it's very much real and it's not just this intangible thing that I'm seeing from London."

Aoife Weir:

Yeah, I would totally agree with Divya on that as well because I think it grows you as a person as well. It can be quite challenging when you've worked some for 18 months and you know people and you have friends and then you go, in Divya's case to Tokyo, and have to start from scratch. Or my case when you went on client secondment and I didn't know anyone in the organization. That's quite challenging to be the new person and make friends and develop those personal relationships and professional relationships that you don't have a reputation when you start in a new organization.
I think, aside from the training contract, it's been a very valuable life skill to have to put yourself out there and to make new relationships that you previously didn't have. And yeah, it's something I've definitely taken away from the training contract experience and I'm glad that I had that opportunity to go on secondment for those six months.

Ben McAlary:

Really good points. Really, really worthwhile. All right. Well, we've reached the part of the episode where we're going to go into our quickfire questions. Are you both ready?

Divya Deivanayagam:

Yeah, sure. We'll give it a go.

Aoife Weir:

Yeah.

Ben McAlary:

Okay. Aoife, when it comes to doing work or doing your best work where you're generating your most amount of ideas, are you a morning or a night person?

Aoife Weir:

I'm a morning person. 1,000%. If it gets to about 10:00 PM that's me switched off for the day. But yeah, definitely a morning person.

Divya Deivanayagam:

I'm a night person. The most groundbreaking analysis is in a 10:00 PM onwards slot for me.

Ben McAlary:

Aoife, what is your favorite book of all time, or what podcast are you enjoying at the moment?

Aoife Weir:

Favorite book is a bit called The Five People You Meet in Heaven. It's a really easy read, it's a fiction book, but it's just a very, very good book, which I would highly recommend to anyone. And then favorite podcast is probably cliche, but it's by Elizabeth Day, it's called How to Fail. If anyone hasn't listened to it, again would highly recommend. It talks about people's failures, but actually it talks about how these failures are successes. It's quite a motivating podcast that I listen to on my daily walks.

Divya Deivanayagam:

My favorite book is one I read over COVID, it's called Untamed by Glennon Doyle. It's more of an autobiography style book. And while I wasn't in a stage of life and didn't have any shared common life experiences with the author, which she shares her story, I think there's so much to relate in it. And I think it was just when I read that in COVID during a lockdown, it for me was the testament of the human experience. And you don't all have to be in the same place, going through the same thing to be thinking the same. Podcast, I'm at the moment more on a music instead of podcast phase. Not anything that I would beat a drum about at the moment.

Ben McAlary:

All right. We might go to Divya first now. What is the biggest myth or misconception about being a commercial law trainee at Ashurst?

Divya Deivanayagam:

It's not like Suits, the TV show.

Ben McAlary:

Excellent answer, excellent answer.

Aoife Weir:

Yeah, I would just agree with that one and add to it. It's not... Some people wear suits, but a lot of people actually dress quite casually unless they have a client meeting. Before I joined Ashurst, I had bought all these fancy clothes and really formal clothes, but in reality I think I wore them a few times in the first six months. But since then have had to buy a new wardrobe to keep in line with the culture and dress of Ashurst.

Ben McAlary:

Divya, again we'll go to you first. Can you describe Aoife's best quality?

Divya Deivanayagam:

I'm going to split this into personal and professional because we're actually very good friends behind the scenes. The personal is she's hilarious and you have to take my word for it essentially. That's a good quality. And the professional side because we've actually done a seat together, we did our third seat together and I have worked with her. She's a great team player, she's very collaborative, is open to sharing work and taking the load off someone else. In the really key stressful moments she does maintain her cool, which is really important. And so she's a great team player to work with.

Aoife Weir:

Thanks, Divya.

Ben McAlary:

Aoife, I'm going to ask you the same.

Aoife Weir:

Yeah, so I've got two points as well. Professionally, Divya is probably one of the most hardworking people I've ever came across. She doesn't actually stop. Anytime I'm late online, guaranteed Divya is definitely online as well. She's extremely hardworking. I think that's why people enjoy working with her so much as well. And then on a personal note, I hope you don't take this offensively, Divya, but you're very motherly.

Divya Deivanayagam:

I'll take it.

Aoife Weir:

You're always the mother of the group. You bring people together and you look after people and you take people under your wing. Yeah, that's definitely a really good quality to have.

Ben McAlary:

Oh, that's so nice. This is so good. It's so nice. The final quickfire question is if you could have a coffee meeting with anyone dead or alive, who would it be? Divya.

Divya Deivanayagam:

Aoife knows my answer. It's going to have to be Taylor Swift. And not just... And Aoife will be at said coffee. That's both of our collective answer.

Aoife Weir:

That's also my answer too. It has to be Taylor Swift. It has to.

Ben McAlary:

Fantastic, thank you both. I just have one final question. And that's if you've got one piece of short advice or an encouragement that you would have for a trainee who is considering applying for a secondment. Maybe Divya, we'll go to you first.

Divya Deivanayagam:

I'd say be clear about your intent and why you want to do the secondment because as we've explored during the course of this podcast, both these options include you uprooting from your current lifestyle to something new and to take on that challenge and have an open mind to embrace that new experience you need to be sure of why you're doing it. Be that an area of interest, be that to expand your network, be that to further your own career goals for qualification. Just as long as you know why you're doing it, I think that's really, really key. Especially in my case, when you choose to move to a different country, leave your family and friends and have that fresh chapter in every way. It should be more than just, "I want to travel the world and I want this amazing travel experience," because a lot of that time you spend wherever you are, it's your daily life. Monday to Friday will be work oriented. Make sure you just really understand your intentions when applying for a secondment.

And I'd say supplemental to that, make sure you are having a broader picture of your training contract, that you've done the seats that you want to, that this is the right time to do the training contract, make sure you're speaking to people both from HR graduate recruitment to your peers and senior trainees or those who've just qualified and gone through the process on is this the right time to do it. Because the training contract is structured in a particular way to make sure you get as much exposure as you can to different areas of work that we do to make sure that you have the highest opportunity of qualifying and being retained post your training. Just make sure that that element is covered off as well and you're just not getting carried away by this being a cool, amazing experience.

Aoife Weir:

Yeah. And for me, I would agree with everything Divya just said, and I would just reemphasize the whole timing point. I think timing for any secondment is really key. For me anyway, I already knew where I wanted to qualify prior to doing the client secondment. I think that's really important. And sometimes you can do the client secondment or any secondment at an earlier stage, but I don't necessarily know if I would've got the same out of the experience if I had went as a second or third seat trainee.

I think I would've found it quite stressful, have been going on secondment and not actually knowing where I want to qualify when I return to Ashurst. Yeah, I think timing's definitely key. But also, on the flip side of that, I don't think you should overthink it. I think if you know where you want to qualify and a secondment opportunity comes up, I would just say go for it.

It's one of the best experiences I've taken on professionally to date and I would recommend it to anyone. And as much as I had some transactional experience prior to doing the BP secondment, I didn't have any transactional experience in the energy industry. And so, from those six months, I've really been able to develop new skills and new understandings in a different context.

Yeah, I would definitely recommend it to anyone, but I guess timing is everything. And remember that when you go on secondment, you still have to come back to Ashurst at some point. So it might be ideal to come back when you know where you want to qualify.

Ben McAlary:

Wow, they're both great pieces of advice. Thank you so much. You've both been incredible. Really enjoyed your insights and your different insights on the different secondments at Ashurst. And undoubtedly they would've provided our listeners with some really valuable perspectives. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you both for joining the podcast.

Divya Deivanayagam:

Thank you so much. It was great to speak.

Aoife Weir:

Thank you.

Ben McAlary:

Thank you for listening. To hear more episodes in the series in case you miss them, visit ashurst.com/podcasts. And to ensure you don't miss any future Legal Outlook episode, subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. And while you're there, please feel free to leave us a rating and, or a review. Thanks again for listening and goodbye for now.