Women in Tech, Episode 3

Denae Erasmus:
Hello, and welcome to Ashurst Legal Outlook and this special mini-series on Women in Tech. My name is Denae Erasmus and I'm a Senior Associate in Ashurst's Digital Economy Team. In today's episode, we talk with Rhiannon Webster, who's a Partner in the Digital Economy Team and who heads up Ashurst's data practice.

Denae Erasmus:
In our discussion. Rhiannon talks to us about her career journey as a woman in practice, improving female representation in practice, and how emerging tech is driving change in data practices today. Here's our conversation. Rhiannon, thanks so much for joining us today. I thought we'd kick off with a nice general question. Do you want to just chat to us a bit about your career journey to partner?

Rhiannon Webster :
I qualified about 15 years ago now, into a general commercial services department. I was doing all different kind of contracts and a bit of IP, but also a little bit of data protection too. Because at the time, the firm that I worked for did a lot for the NHS. So, it was one of the few organisations that actually cared about data protection.

Rhiannon Webster :
The more I did, the more I wanted to know about it. So, I got more and more into it, I did it for more and more clients and then eventually, saw that there was a business case for partnership, really. To be able to do it and be the partner at my firm specialised in data protection. So, I went for it.

Rhiannon Webster:
It also happened to coincide with four letters that you might know, which is the GDPR. That was coming in just as I was getting to the point where I could feasibly put a partnership business case together. So, there was a real business need for it.

Denae Erasmus:
That's great. It's nice to see that it sounds like you almost organically grew into an area of practice that you really enjoy. Which is great to hear.

Rhiannon Webster:
Yeah, that's right. I must confess, I felt really uncomfortable advising in that area of law right at the beginning. So I took myself off, with the firm's support obviously, and did a course. Then suddenly, the more you know about something, the more interested in it that I was. Frankly, I'm only interested in things that I'm good at, so I skilled myself up so that I could know what I was talking about. Then, the more I knew, the more I liked advising on that area of law.

Denae Erasmus:
I empathise. What do you find most rewarding about being a partner in practice?

Rhiannon Webster:
I like the managerial role, I love bringing on my team, I like the interaction with clients. I like getting to know lots of different clients and lots of different businesses. That whole thing means that I have a varied day. I do lots of training, I do lots of presentations. At the point of GDPR I was doing lots of board presentations too. As I say, it's great variety to my day and there's definitely not a day when I'm stuck at my desk, doing the same thing all day, in and out.

Denae Erasmus:
Leading on from that, I mean, what skills do you think are important for young women in our industry? I suppose particularly for a successful career in practice, then?

Rhiannon Webster:
I think you've got to spot the opportunities. I think I was very fortunate in that I was in an area of law that was booming, but I was the person who went after that opportunity. No one else in the firm was saying that they wanted to be a data protection partner. It kind of wasn't really heard of at the time.

Rhiannon Webster:
So, I think you've got to be quite astute, you've got to go for those opportunities when you see them. Also, create a team around you that you enjoy working with. That's above you and below you, need that whole team to make it a very rewarding and enjoyable career.

Denae Erasmus:
That's interesting, because I think one of the things that strikes me, based on your answers so far, has been very much that you've been at the right place at the right time. Someone once said to me that it's not about being at the right place at the right time, it's about putting yourself in the place of luck. Or finding your way into the flow of luck, which very much seems to be what's happened with your journey so far.

Rhiannon Webster:
I think that's a fair summary of the situation too. As I say, I think it's a combination of being in the right place at the right time. It was also a combination of spotting that it was an opportunity, spotting that there was a real business need for it. When I went through the partner process, it was like the wind was behind me.

Rhiannon Webster:
My answers to all the, when you're putting your business case together and there was a panel of the actual partnership process, I believed in what I was saying. I believed that the firm was really going to miss out if there wasn't a partner leading this charge. So, my answers were genuine and it meant that the process was very simple.

Denae Erasmus:
Rhiannon, what's the best advice on career progression that you've received from a colleague, or even from a fellow partner?

Rhiannon Webster:
I'm not sure if it was advice, or I'm not even sure if it was about career progression, but I think this will give you a bit of insight into my career progression to date. When I was saying that I saw an opportunity, when the GDPR was coming in, to be partner, I didn't tell you at the time that was also the time that I had just got married. Also, I became pregnant with twins.

Rhiannon Webster:
So, in possibly the most badly-timed pregnancy for a GDPR expert, during the course of 2015 and 2016, when the GDPR was, well, it had been settled and it was coming into law, I was pregnant with twins, then went on maternity leave. I remember telling my boss at the time and he laughed and he said, "Rhiannon, there is no good time to have children. You've just got to go for it and it will all sort out."

Rhiannon Webster:
It did, to be honest, but those words have always stayed with me. At the time, I was nervous about telling him. Not that I've wanted to change any decisions I've made to date about it, but they were quite wise words.

Denae Erasmus:
I suppose what he meant was, really, if it's something that you want to do, you just need to do it. There will never be a right time really, but you do it and you get through it. Certainly, things have worked out really well for you, then.

Rhiannon Webster:
His words were comforting, even if they don't seem it at the time. Because I remember thinking, "This is about as badly timed as it could possibly be." But, life happens and there's certain things that should happen. When it comes to women, there's annoyingly a time when your career is really taking off. It's usually the time, too, that biological clocks are ticking.

Rhiannon Webster:
If you're going to have children, that's the time when you really need to get going on it, if that's what you want to do. It usually coincides with a point in career which is not ideal. But, saying all that, my twins are now five-years-old, I'm still a partner. I'm now a partner at a different firm, which I'm very much enjoying, in a great team and I wouldn't have done it any different way.

Denae Erasmus:
That's wonderful. That's good to know. I suppose that leads on to another question that I wanted to ask you. How do you think both genders can better support representation for women in practise? Because, I mean, this issue around a female's career taking off, timing for children, for family, it's something that most of us grapple with, have to deal with. So, how do you think we can better support that?

Rhiannon Webster:
I think a lot of it can begin at home. I am very lucky that my husband and I have shared the responsibilities of childcare from the very beginning. Actually, when I say that, I took maternity leave. At the time, I wasn't that keen about sharing my maternity leave with anyone. But, once I was in the reality of maternity leave, I did suggest to my husband that maybe he would like to share it with me.

Rhiannon Webster:
Which, it wasn't really the point in his career or in the structure that he was in at the time that that could have worked, so he didn't. But since then, he actually now works three-and-a-half days a week and I work five days a week, so that we can be there and do school runs for our children.

Rhiannon Webster:
Because of that, because of my husband at home and we are willing to do that for each other. Take our foot off pedal at various different points of our careers, that has meant that I have been free to go and do more for my career at this point of time. Which has, therefore, meant that I have more of a chance of bringing that equality to the workplace.

Denae Erasmus:
That's wonderful. You said that he did take some paternity leave at the time that you were on maternity leave as well?

Rhiannon Webster:
Yeah, he did. He took what he was allowed, which was the two weeks. I mean, obviously it's better than nothing, but at the time, to give you more insights into what happened next, at the point where I was pregnant with twins, they came very prematurely. They went into intensive care.

Rhiannon Webster:
Those first few months, actually, were spent with me by the side of intensive care cots. Not really knowing what feasibly you can do. There wasn't much point in my husband having paternity leave at that point. I know it sounds very callous, but it was much more useful to me once we were all home from hospital. So actually, he took his two weeks paternity leave a few months later and it was very much needed at that time.

Denae Erasmus:
That's interesting, because I've heard friends say that it's often more helpful for dads to take paternity leave a bit later on, as opposed to immediately after their partner has given birth. I suppose, do you agree with that?

Rhiannon Webster:
Yes I do. I would've loved it if he could have taken more than that at the time and taken various different chunks. They are long days once you've gone from-

Denae Erasmus:
Yeah.

Rhiannon Webster:
I mean, I was a very busy city lawyer, to being stuck at home with two very small babies on my own. I don't have my own family very close to me and my husband's family are actually, and they were, absolutely amazing. But, they are long days when you are waiting for somebody to come home and relieve you at the end of the day. They were also long periods of time before he took a holiday. So actually, having more flexibility for partners to take maternity and paternity leave throughout that first whole year would be absolutely amazing.

Denae Erasmus:
That's really interesting, because it sounds to me like what would almost be ideal is this concept of flexibility, right? As opposed to taking one big chunk of maternity or paternity, whatever the case may be. Having the flexibility to perhaps take half a day as opposed to a full day, or a few days a week as opposed to a full week, right?

Rhiannon Webster:
Yes, absolutely. Just those a few hours at various different points would've been very much welcomed by me at the time. It's true, I think employers should be flexible as to the needs of the parents. Flexibility is key.

Denae Erasmus:
I also just want to talk to you a bit about your transition back into practice after your maternity leave. How did you find that? Was it an immediate transition back into full time, or did you transition back in gradually?

Rhiannon Webster:
I did it gradually. I actually came back earlier than I had planned, because there was another partner who was doing GDPR stuff and she left to go in house. So, my team were partnerless and supervisorless in the middle of my maternity leave. I went back two days a week, after, I think it was about six or seven months.

Denae Erasmus:
Okay.

Rhiannon Webster:
I did one day from the office and one day from home. That was quite a nice transition. Then, gradually, I moved up to four days a week, which I did for the time up until my twins went to school. It's hard, I'm not going to sugarcoat the return from maternity leave. In my case, I know lots of people come back, especially into private practice and they are having to grow their workload again.

Rhiannon Webster:
I didn't have that problem, because I came back, still, through the GDPR actually coming into force. But, there was a lot of work for me to do. But, what it was quite tricky to do is to establish those client relationships that had been looked after by other people in my absence. But, those people who'd looked after those client relationships were building their own partnership business cases and it's not for me to go and stamp on their opportunities too.

Rhiannon Webster:
So, I did have quite a lot of building from the bottom to do again. It took me quite a few years to get to the point where I was making the same financial impact that I had pre-maternity leave. That's tough. It wasn't because I was working any less hard either. It was just because I'd had to essentially start again in various different points. Yeah, that's tough.

Denae Erasmus:
Thank you for being so candid about it, because I think it definitely something that we need to talk about more, right? Because we as women who have children all go through this at various stages of our career. I mean, I think this is just as relevant for lawyers in practise as it is for lawyers in house, right? Because I think you work very hard to pave your way to an end goal, for example.

Denae Erasmus:
As you said, life happens, right? You do need to put a bit of a pause on that journey, but I think what strikes me is that, in the broader scheme of things, women who have done this have managed to get where they wanted to. Even though it may might have taken them a year or two longer than they thought. Which I mean, I find quite inspiring.

Rhiannon Webster:
Yeah, I think that's right. It can take longer, and some would argue that it shouldn't take longer. I think I had naively assumed that you put your career on hold when you go on maternity leave and you come back in the same position as you left it. But, that's not the case. In my situation anyway.

Rhiannon Webster:
I was a few steps down the ladder, to be polite. That I had to climb back up to even get to the same platform that I had before I left. But, I would say that I had quite a lot of support when I came back from maternity leave. There were a lot of people around me who were very willing and were talking to me about what I needed in order to get back on the ladder.

Rhiannon Webster:
In hindsight, I think what would've been better, actually, is before I left, some more help to establish what I would say was mine. Not to be possessive about it, but to make sure that that was going to be looked after in my absence. Whether that's through cover or who in the firm was going to look after different relationships.

Rhiannon Webster:
I think all law firms need to look at it. Rather than just trying to help people when they come back, let's look at that whole process from when people go. See what that whole process looks like, to see what help they can give women. And men, I should say too. Because there's more and more men taking longer periods of time out to do this and the same help should be available to them too.

Denae Erasmus:
I suppose what do you think are the biggest opportunities and challenges facing young females in practice today?

Rhiannon Webster:
I think we are getting there for equality. We need to make sure that we keep that momentum going. I think that the more and more men that take career breaks, paternity leave, shared parental leave, the more and more there is the opportunity for that equality in the workplace. Because there should be no bias in that situation, because when you're interviewing somebody, it should be just as likely that the man will take six months off as the woman will take six months off.

Denae Erasmus:
You spoke about having a partner that was very much willing to put his career on pause as well,
right? Well, I suppose as a female, there is a certain reality that you do have to place pause on your career. Because ultimately, biologically, you are the one having the baby, right?

Rhiannon:
Yeah.

Denae Erasmus:
But, thinking about it slightly differently, I mean, that's not to say that her partner shouldn't also be supported and encouraged to take a pause themselves. Because aside from pausing your career to take paternity leave, it's only at the start of the journey when you raise your kids, right? Your kids are with you until, well, I suppose these days, until after uni. So, oftentimes-

Rhiannon:
That's a depressing thought, but yeah.

Denae Erasmus:
At the start of their careers, right? I mean, males being encouraged to take time to kind of hit pause every now and again, does, I think, sound certainly to me like a way in which we can foster more equality in the workplace. That's great, Rhiannon, I really haven't thought about it that way before.

Rhiannon:
I think it's just because I've seen my husband kind of press that pause a few times. When I said that he didn't take shared parental leave at the time, he wasn't really, as I say, in an environment where it could have worked. It would've put a lot of pressure on people around him.

Rhiannon:
So, because of that and various other considerations, he moved to a different organisation and a much larger team. Which has got much more infrastructure around so that people can stop and start their career. The more I have now stepped up my career and I've gone to full time, it got to the point where, actually, in his career, it has made sense for him to press pause.

Rhiannon:
As I say, he's gone down to three-and-a-half days a week now. He does short days so that he can do the school run and that he's around. It gives us as a family more flexibility. Because we can both work full time, really, with the help that we have around us, as long as everything's going fine. As long as no one is sick, as long as the childcare is working. But, as soon as one of those things doesn't happen, then it's a bit of a crisis. It's us trying to work out whose meetings are more important, how we can get emergency childcare.

Rhiannon Webster:
That has just worked for us, but he has definitely been given, in the organisation that he is in at the moment, it's a very big organisation with lots of structures around it. He approached his boss and said that he would like to take a bit more of a backseat. They said that's fine and they've put him in a role that he can step back up his career at another point. It's not anything dead end.

Rhiannon Webster:
In fact, his boss, who is a woman herself, said to him that things change and that she had taken various different pauses in her career, but she was always really grateful for the opportunity then to step back up and do more at different points. In fact, he's in a role at the moment where there is lots of inspirational women around him.

Denae Erasmus:
That's amazing. I suppose my takeaway from that really, is for organisations to think about how they can really support the flexibility that families need. Particularly at the outset, when children are still small and that flexibility is needed.

Denae Erasmus:
I mean, what also strikes me is this really positive balance that you have in your relationship with your husband. The willingness for both of you to press pause when it's needed, and that you both have support to do that. That's really great.

Rhiannon Webster:
That's right, Danae. I think we have been very lucky to be able to work as a partnership together, to be able to flex and, let's say, pulse our careers at various different points. But that, in itself, if such a flexibility is given to both parents or any parent that needs it, then that could and should drive equality in the workplace.

Denae Erasmus:
Okay. Well, moving on, a question around data. I want to know a bit about how you've seen data protection practices evolve over your career.

Rhiannon Webster:
Data protection was really not sexy when I was qualifying. People didn't used to particularly care about it. To give some context around it, at the time when I qualified, the Information Commissioner didn't have even the power to fine. They could issue undertakings, which were promises not to do it again, or enforcement notices, they were published on the Information Commissioner's website.

Rhiannon Webster:
They barely hit the news. People just were not that interested in data protection, but then gradually over the years, the Information Commissioner got the power to fine. There were some big security breaches that hit the news. People became more and more concerned about their personal data.

Rhiannon Webster:
Then we had the GDPR, which brought in fines up to 4% of annual worldwide turnover. Then it became a real board-level interest. Because of that, the teams in both private practice and in house have echoed that. You've got some massive, now, data protection teams working for organisations. It's very different from when I started off in my career.

Denae Erasmus:
I suppose it's interesting to be in a position where you can actually see a field of practice evolve in front of your eyes. Because I mean, it's all evolved very quickly and that must have been really exciting.

Rhiannon Webster:
Yeah, it was. It's really exciting to be listened to. It's really exciting to go with companies on this journey, too. There were big compliance projects that had to be implemented in organisations. Implementing data protection in organisations isn't about having it, just knowledge sat in one person.

Rhiannon Webster:
It's about it being in the fabric of the companies, so that everyone understands what they're doing with personal data, why they're doing it and what the law is around it. That's a big, exciting change, too. People actually want to talk to me about data protection at dinner parties now. I'm not that keen to reciprocate. But, everyone thinks that they know something about it, but that has been good in itself.

Denae Erasmus:
In what ways do you think emerging tech is driving change in data protection practices?

Rhiannon Webster:
When you're a data protection lawyer, you've got to understand that technology in order to be able to advise on it. There's a lot of questions that we have to ask to get into the grips of the technology and then to be able to understand the data flows which are happening. With emerging tech, we're getting more and more data protection work, because there's more and more uses of personal data. But, we then have to work out whether it's in compliance with the law.

Rhiannon Webster:
There's a concept in the GDPR, which is privacy by design and privacy by default. These emerging techs need to be built, if they're going to be processing personal data, they need to be built with privacy at its heart. That means that data protection lawyers get involved right at the beginning. Which is very interesting in itself too, because we learn about the tech with the business and then can advise as it evolves. It's emerging tech and data, they go together.

Denae Erasmus:
Are you certainly seeing that, that clients, as they develop new tech, are really starting with data protection and privacy by design in mind?

Rhiannon Webster:
Some do. The more advanced organisations when it comes to data protection, which I think are more the regulated sector, the financial services sector, have been there a bit longer on this. They involve their data protection teams from the very beginning and so therefore, it does. We still see a lot of clients coming to us, wanting something signed off when data protection has not been thought about from the very beginning.

Rhiannon Webster:
Then, it's very difficult to reverse engineer and provide the data protection advice that's needed once the technology is there. Where essentially then, you are making risk-based decisions, based on things that have already been settled. When actually, you should have been helping developing the ideas along the way. We are far from that perfect scenario of data protection being always by design and by default, but we're definitely getting there, along that journey.

Denae Erasmus:
Thank you very, very much for sitting down again and chatting. For being so candid about being a new mother and the journey that you went through. Not only you, you and your husband went through when you had your twins. It's been really interesting and insightful for me, certainly, and I'm sure for listeners too. So, thanks again.

Rhiannon Webster:
Thanks, Denae.

Denae Erasmus:
Thank you for listening to our special mini-series on Women in Tech. If you enjoyed this episode and don't want to miss the rest of this miniseries, please subscribe to Ashurst Legal Outlook wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, feel free to leave us a rating or review. If you'd like to find out more about Ashurst's Digital Economy Practice, please visit www.ashurst.com. In the meantime, thanks very much for listening and goodbye for now.

Speaker 3:
If you enjoy Ashurst Legal Outlook, why not check out our other two podcast series as well. Ashurst Business Agenda tackles the big strategic issues that business leaders face. And ESG Matters @ Ashurst reveals how business leaders are rising to mounting environmental, social and governance challenges. You can listen and subscribe to Business Agenda and ESG Matters wherever you get your podcasts.