Women in Tech, Episode 4

Michelle Sally:
Hello, and welcome to Ashurst Legal Outlook and this special mini-series on Women in Tech. My name is Michelle Sally, and I'm a Senior Associate within Ashurst's digital economy team. In today's episode, we talk with Erin Abraham, who is Legal Counsel for Uber. In our discussion, Erin and I chat about how the landscape has changed for women in tech and law over the years, and provide the listener with a few affirmations for their career journey. Here's our conversation.

Michelle Sally:
So, Erin, thanks so much for joining us today. It's really exciting to have you here talking to us about women in tech, because you and I go way back now, many moons ago. Just for the listener's benefit, Erin and I used to work together in the digital economy team. Erin has since moved on to become legal counsel at Uber. I'm left behind, but I've done a few months' secondment, actually, with Uber, and it was such an exciting ride, if you'll excuse the pun. I guess, to open up this podcast with a unique question for you, Erin, is what is your favorite podcast, to kick off?

Erin Abraham:
Love it. Well, thanks for having me, Michelle. I'm really excited to do this. There is one podcast that I've been listening to for years, and I mean it's seven years, it's been going on forever. It's called the TED Radio Hour.

Michelle Sally:
Okay.

Erin Abraham:
And it used to be hosted by a guy called Guy. His name is Guy Raz or Guy Roz. It basically picks up all these TED Talks that have happened all over the world, and they'll choose a subject like music, or beauty, or why human beings, X, Y, Z, and it will gather all the TED Talks on that topic and go through them, analyze them. So it's always one hour. And I think it's hosted on the NPR radio in America or whatever, but they also made it into a podcast. It's so good. I highly recommend that.

Michelle Sally:
Really have to resist the urge here to Google it on

Erin Abraham:
No, you should. You should. There's one more, actually. So there's one more podcast that I have to recommend if you're going into the podcast world. There is a lady called Alex Wolf, and her podcast is called The Alex Wolf Podcast. She's quite young, but she explores the most interesting topics. So, currently, the last one I listened to was called Are Millennials The Dumbest Generation? So, it's that sort of stuff.

Michelle Sally:
Wow. And what was the answer?

Erin Abraham:
Yes.

Michelle Sally:
Wow.

Erin Abraham:
And it's like tech, philosophy. It's like Eastern philosophy. It's just like new ideas. It's just very mind expanding. So I love that kind of stuff, just a bit of a content junkie myself. So those are the two I would recommend.

Michelle Sally:
But it's funny, just from the two podcasts that you've mentioned, you're very, very into your tech, Erin. And an interesting segue into my first real question is what actually drew you to Uber? Because they're a massive tech unicorn, so well established now. It's a very big name. What was it that made you want to go there?

Erin Abraham:
I think for me, I always knew that I wanted to feel inspired by the work that I was doing, and also just like a sense of alignment. Owning this kind of pursuit of inspiration and alignment is a nontraditional way of thinking when it comes to career and things like that. So how this whole thing started is I qualified into digital economy. Digital economy, coolest team, focused on tech, media telecom transactions whilst I was there, really stripped back team. I think that was the closest a law firm would get to imbibing the tech spirit. Just very stripped back, casual, really cool work. But what it did is it gave me glimpses into what it was like to work with or for a tech business. And I love that we had that breadth, so many different projects, so many different companies. But I just felt like I really wanted to be in the action with a tech company and just be in the epicenter of it all rather than working on discrete projects.

Erin Abraham:
So I just started to look around just very casually, nothing too intense. And the opportunity with Uber came up very quickly. I think like most people from the outside who haven't really gone into the depths of Uber see it as like, "Okay, yeah, so it's a cool Silicon Valley tech company. But what are they doing? Is it really tech? Are they really tech, or is it taxis?" sort of thing? I remember my first conversation with Kandarp, who's now my manager, and another team member, and they spoke about the business. And the way they spoke about the business and their work, I could see that they were inspired by what Uber was doing. And it was just contagious. I did my own research into Uber and I had a think about it, and I just knew that it was an opportunity that I wanted to get involved with. And it honestly has been the best decision, the best career decision so far. So I've really enjoyed the approximately three years that I've been here now.

Michelle Sally:
Yes, it's been a while and I must admit, miss you loads, but feel inspired talking to you. And I was very lucky to do a couple of months' secondment with you guys. That was the vibe that I felt while I was there. Everyone just felt inspired by the motto, by the way of life. And one thing in particular that got to me was that your CEO was so accessible. So when I was in secondment at your office, Dara came over and sat in the kitchen, in the kitchen with everybody, having a cup of tea, and just talking about his experiences in Silicon Valley, across the world, internationally. I have never heard of that close connectivity between a CEO and the staff of such a tech unicorn. How does it feel to have that accessibility as a theme across your business?

Erin Abraham :
Yeah, it's the coolest thing. Uber is my first foray out of private practice, so I don't know whether this is the norm across tech companies, but I think it really just is one of those cultural norms of the business. There's just this accessibility to people in leadership. And it sort of destroys the whole siloed us versus them, the leadership are shrouded in mystery, and just brings the team together in a really cohesive way, and just creates a center of accountability. So the CEO, whatever decisions they're making at the top can be challenged by literally anyone in the business. We actually have weekly all hands where the whole business across the world gathers together by Zoom. And at the end of the all hands, we have updates and things like that.

Erin Abraham:
At the end of the all hands, we have a Q&A session where anyone in the business can ask a question and the CEO has to answer. So their decisions can be queried by anyone. And I just think it's the coolest thing, because it means that the business is collaborative and everyone feels like they're brought into a collective mission rather than a few people at the top who are driving the ship and no one else really has a say that's significant. So I just love that way of doing things and I think it really speaks to who I am as a person, just that collaborative outlook on things and that team spirit that's genuine rather than semantics.

Michelle Sally:
And as women, I think we've had some exposure quite early in our careers to some phenomenal experiences, and that is definitely one of mine. Sounds like it's one of yours. How do you feel the industry, the tech industry, the legal industry, has changed for women since you first started your career?

Erin:
Yeah. I love that I have come into my career stride at a time where businesses are really having to acknowledge diversity squarely and not just in terms of talk or numbers but a recognition, I think, that growing a diverse workforce is just the right, equitable thing to do. People want to do it because it's the right thing to do. And secondly, because in some way or another, a lack of diversity is going to affect the bottom line. And people appreciate that now in a way that I don't think they've ever appreciated it before. I'm just very privileged to be working at a time where there's so much momentum behind diversity. Today I can sit with my team at Uber and have a regular cadence with the general manager or the regional general manager who just wants to talk diversity. And it's not from a place of, "We're just trying to meet targets." It's genuine care. It's genuine conviction that this is something we need to do as a company.

Erin Abraham:
Uber is incredible with it. They will give employees a blank sheet of paper and say, "What do we need to do in order to build a diverse workforce?" And those ideas can come from anyone, come from anywhere. It's just putting minds together to make sure that there's representation at the table all the time. I'm very grateful to all the women who've come before me and demanded that seat at the table, because it means these days that I'm expected to be at that table, and that just wasn't the case even 10 years ago. So it is really, really amazing to be working at this time. It's just a great time to be pushing my career.

Michelle Sally:
Yeah. I feel the same. I think about when I joined Ashurst, Ruth Harris was made up to managing partner, and she was a phenomenal role model for people like me who see myself at Ashurst. And now we've got Karen Davies. And as you say, there's also this huge diversity push, not just to tick a box anymore. It's a conversation. Clients just want to talk about it. We want to talk about it. And I feel like it's a nice thing to talk about as well. It's not your usual law. It's interesting conversations about day-to-day life. So I totally agree. It's a very different landscape than even five years ago. So what's the biggest driving force that led you to where you are today?

Erin Abraham:
So two things, inspiration and alignment. They're so important to me, honestly. And if I feel like I'm not inspired, it's very difficult for me to plug in. So at any given point, I want to be part of an organization that I really, really relate to their mission, and I can see what they're doing in the world and it excites me. I think it's important to build your career around that because there's so many options out there. There's so many things you can do. But, at the end of the day, your career is so fundamental to your life, you spend so many hours at your desk, you want to be doing something that makes you feel alive. And those are the things that just really drive me with my decisions, with my career.

Michelle Sally:
You could turn those into those wee motto cards with the clouds.

Erin Abraham:
Just reeling them off. Yeah. Even with my career inside Uber, I'm always looking for different opportunities to do something new, to learn something new, to plug into what's really speaking to who I am or what I'm interested in.

Michelle Sally:
I love it. And when did you first develop your interest in tech that sits alongside this inspiration side of things?

Erin:
I was thinking about this earlier and I honestly can't remember when I became fascinated with tech, but I do remember my dad getting our first computer. I was so young. My memory starts strangely early as well. I must have been three. We had this computer and this dial-up modem. And he got me this little Apple, this box looking thing that sat in my room, which is an Apple computer from 90 something.

Michelle Sally:
Oh my goodness. That'll be worth a few quid now.

Erin Abraham:
Yeah, it would be. He threw it away, I'm sure.

Michelle Sally:
Did he keep it? Did he keep it?

Erin Abraham:
No, no, no. It was thrown away. I wish we'd kept it. It is remarkable when you look at those computers now. Anyway, yeah, I just used to be so fascinated with those computers. I'd just sit there for hours, not really knowing what was going on with them, but just exploring. And something about the way tech changes the world and all those cliches, I just want to be within that action, as I've said before. So I think that's where the fascination started, just being within whatever is changing the world.

Michelle Sally:
It's funny. I was very resistant to the iPhone when it first came out because I thought, It's no buttons. You can't use it. How do you work it if there's no buttons? I've obviously changed my view dramatically. I think the one thing about tech that I love is that it's always changing. A flip side of this, what's been, as you see it, a significant barrier to your career as you've moved up?

Erin Abraham:
I don't think I've faced explicit barriers, which I know is a testament to how much work women, black women did before me. So I don't think I've faced explicit barriers, but I think I've definitely faced implicit barriers. And one of the things that comes to mind when I hear this question, or one of the instances, I'll tell you about. So when I moved in-house three years ago, I think when I landed, I perhaps didn't look like what people would expect a lawyer to look like. I have a baby face. I look very young. I am young.

Michelle Sally:
You are young, Erin.

Erin Abraham:
I am young. I am young, but I look much younger. I look much younger than I am, which I don't love at this stage. I'm sure I'll love it at some point in the future.

Michelle Sally:
You've always been much wiser than your years, though, as well.

Erin Abraham:
Yeah, I'm a female. I'm black. And I think with people having, nothing explicit, but just sometimes you have implicit expectations of what a lawyer looks or sounds like, or how they show up. I just don't think I showed up in any of those sort of traditional ways. And when I would enter a room to give legal advice on a new project, when I first started, at least in my first few months, there was just a sort of question mark as to, "Who is legal counsel in this room?" And it would be like, "I am legal counsel in this room." And you're having to earn that respect as legal counsel in the room and own my voice as legal counsel in the room.

Erin Abraham:
There would be instances where, I have a particular specialism as a commercial legal counsel, there are other people with different specialisms, there'd be tax, employment, reg, or whatever, if I had another legal specialist in the room, they may automatically defer to that person just because that person may look more like a lawyer, rather than me for my specialism. So I used to have to think quite hard about it, like, "Do I need to lower my voice, or speak really loudly? Or what do I need to do to flag my presence in this room?" And I think there were two things that really helped with that.

Erin Abraham:
So the head of my team, Helen Hayes, who is phenomenal, she has definitely broken a lot of barriers for us, but she says something that really resonates with me. She always says, "Advise fearlessly." My interpretation of that is that you get into a room, speak your mind, but you have an opinion. You have been trained. You know how to analyze the situation. So speak up. Just do it. And sometimes it would mean that I would have to introduce myself, say, "I'm commercial legal counsel. Nice to meet you. This is my analysis of the situation and these are my points." And I think slowly but surely people began to just recognize that I was legal counsel and ask for my opinion, rather than me having to volunteer it all the time.

Erin Abraham:
Then the second thing that I think was pretty powerful, and this speaks to male allyship, which I think is such an important point, is in those early days, my team members within the legal team, I think, were conscious of it. And one of the things they used to do when a question would be directed to them which should have been directed to me, they would say, "Erin is the expert on this and we're deferring to Erin in this situation." And just that signal, which is very powerful because it meant that they as legal counsel respected or saw my presence in the room as important and my opinion as an important, I think that created a general sense of, "Erin is part of the legal team and she has an opinion that needs to be heard in this room." That happened a few times, which I was really encouraged by. And I just love to see the fact that my male counterparts in the room were just standing up for new, young female voice in the room. I think that speaks to the strength and the merits of male allyship.

Michelle Sally:
You've answered my later question of how you think genders can better support each other. It's a very powerful message that you have there, Erin, about allyship and just little subtle things that our male counterparts can do to support women in tech, in law.

Erin Abraham:
Definitely.

Michelle Sally:
It doesn't feel like much, but it has such a big impact that you've cited that as one of your big career defining moments.

Erin Abraham:
The impact is, honestly, huge. It's, honestly, huge. It's a collaborative effort, at the end of the day, for us to promote diversity. When we have our male counterparts getting on board with what we're trying to do and what we're trying to promote, it just helps the effort, and it's so, so important.

Michelle Sally:
Yeah, yeah. I can relate to that story. I mean, yours is very, very powerful. But talking about five years ago, I do remember being the only woman in the room with a large number of men. And I was the leader on these negotiations. You come into the room, you recognize that you're different. And then engage the good advice that you've been given along the way. The advice that I had at the time was, "If you're in a conference call scenario, in a room with a lot of other people and you feel small, go and sit next to the microphone so everybody on that conference call can hear you. And sit tall, be big. Don't shy away." But I digress. So what advice would you pass on to other women? Now that you've been on the other side and felt other people help you, what advice would you pass on?

Erin Abraham:
So I can speak from my viewpoint, which is being a technology lawyer. I think it's really important to be product obsessed when you're working within tech. So you're a lawyer, yes, but it's so important to completely immerse yourself in the business, in the product, understand the business metrics, understand the environment in which the business operates, get as into it as you can. There's a sort of characterization of my role that I love and it's that we are business stakeholders with legal knowledge, rather than lawyers with business knowledge, if you know what I mean? So that kind of vantage point or viewpoint means that you take ownership of your role within the business, not as an external legal counterpart, because that's not what you are. You are also as immersed in the business as your op stakeholder or as your product stakeholder. And just really getting into the details of things I think really helps to distinguish your advice.

Michelle Sally:
Do you feel as a internal, a law firm lawyer that buys into your product would have a big impact on what the conversations that you would have? So it's also encouraging not just for in-house lawyers but for firm lawyers to really get to know the product as well, because it shows that you have that interest.

Erin Abraham:
Massively. It shows you have an interest, and it just makes the advice so much better because it's not throwing legalese or the textbook at your in-house counterparties. It's, "I understand your business, and this is the commercial advice I'm giving you." It's not just legal advice, it's commercial advice. And it's so important because the way these tech businesses move is just so fast that we don't.

Michelle Sally:
So fast, yeah.

Erin Abraham:
Honestly, we don't have time to sit there and be pouring over what the statute says. We just need to synthesize that into something that makes commercial sense or something we can use to advise the business that enables them whilst also highlighting clearly what the risk areas are.

Michelle Sally:
That's really, really good advice, even for me in the here and now, Erin. What skills do you think are important for women in your industry?

Erin Abraham:
Yeah. So product obsessed is the first one. I think the second one is keying into your authenticity as a person. So I've found that when you're in environments that could be male dominated or maybe a little bit more traditional, there's pressure to adapt and make yourself into what you're not. And I've actually found that one of the most powerful tools is to remain authentic and really remain yourself within that environment. I love that Uber is an environment that encourages that actively.

Erin Abraham:
One of the ways in which it really benefits you is that it creates a real connection between you and the people that you're working with, the people that you're advising. They are coming to you, not just for your advice but also for your personality, for your perspective, for your whole package. And you can only really make that real connection with people when you're being authentic. And also on that point, when you're being authentic, you also open the door for other people coming after you to also be their authentic selves. It's important for fostering that inclusive working environment which we're all trying to build.

Michelle Sally:
I feel like we need the wee cloud motto again of, "Be authentic," just so this can become a meme post-podcast.

Erin Abraham:
Authentic! It means so much to me to be in an environment that I can be authentic. And I will not shrink back from who I am or what I am. So, yeah, it's important.

Michelle Sally:
Yeah. I think you could probably agree with me that it's something that we foster at the digital economy team as well in Ashurst.

Erin Abraham:
Oh, yeah.

Michelle Sally:
We're all very authentic, converse in the office.

Erin Abraham:
Definitely. Definitely.

Michelle Sally:
But not the client meetings.

Erin Abraham:
I think that's why I love that. I love that department so much. It was a great environment.

Michelle Sally:
Oh, that's very kind.

Erin Abraham:
I think there's just one more point to raise on what's important for women in this industry, and I've touched on it before. I think it's so important to believe in yourself. There's actually not much space to not believe in yourself because, like I said before, you need to advise fearlessly. You need to just back yourself. And just, I guess, being bold, it's not easy, and a lot of the times we're psyching ourselves up. We're like, "Come on. Come on, we've got this. You know what you're saying." Just walk into a room and be bold and just throw yourself into it. It is something that I think is needed. I have affirmations written everywhere. I speak to myself a lot to just encourage myself to show up in a bold manner. I think it's one of those things that helps you navigate your career generally, I think, and definitely in-house.

Michelle Sally:
It's something that I have talked about quite a lot with female colleagues about imposter syndrome and how you sometimes feel like, "Oh, am I in the right place? Is this where I should be?"

Erin Abraham:
Yeah. Oh, definitely.

Michelle Sally:
There's a quote that I read many moons ago. This is proper meme territory again. This is one of Richard Branson's ones. "If someone offers you an amazing opportunity, but you're not sure you can do it, say, 'Yes,' and then learn how to do it later." I think that's so true, certainly in the context of.

Erin Abraham:
I love that attitude.

Michelle Sally:
Yeah. You are going to, as a female, sometimes feel like you're not in the right room, you're surrounded by people that don't look like you. Know that other women feel like that too and just be in empowered to go in there and nail it, because you can, and other women have before you. I think we're coming up with all the empowerment modes here, but I do think that's very true.

Erin Abraham:
Yeah. It's such a big element of what it means to be a woman in the workplace. You have to draw on empowerment from wherever you can. So whether it's cheesy quotes or affirmation.

Michelle Sally:
Or Richard Branson.

Erin Abraham:
Yeah. Or leaning on or drawing inspiration from women that have gone ahead of you, it is just so important.

Michelle Sally:
So one last question to wrap it up, Erin. What do you wish you knew when you started your career? What was it that you wish you had known before you kicked all this off? It's a head scratcher. I'll kick you off. I did work experience many moons ago with Cherie Blair. I was really struggling to get a training contract. And she said, "Try to be a big fish in a small pond, not a small fish in a big pond." And it's translated actually to a few things that I've done, because I went home to Ireland and got qualified in Northern Ireland, and I stood out because it was a smaller jurisdiction. And actually, as I moved up through my career, I went to the digital economy team, which was a small team, and I was able to stand out and have ideas and be entrepreneurial. And I found that environment suited me. And I think that was really good advice for me at the time, without even realizing that I'd been given it. I wish I'd connected with that earlier to know how I could move forward.

Erin Abraham:
That's amazing. That is amazing. I think, yeah, it's a big part of the motivation for both of us, actually. I've seen a lot of your work, Michelle, and I've watched you for years, and it is very, very inspiring to come from that viewpoint. I don't think it's anything different to what I've said before. And maybe the biggest point, it's such a cliche, but the biggest point that I would continue to harp on about is just believing in yourself. So following that internal compass. Like, if you feel that you are very inclined towards a certain kind of work or a certain kind of environment, then follow that.

Erin Abraham:
In this industry, as a lawyer in the legal industry and maybe in the tech industry as well, there's a lot of conventional wisdom and expected ways of doing things. And sometimes if you just branch out and follow what you think aligns with you internally, it's the most advantageous thing to do because you're then pursuing what is speaking to you and what will allow you to shine the most within the environments that you find yourself. So, yeah, I think that would be the advice that I'd pass down.

Michelle Sally:
Two fabulous meme ready quotes to end on, I think, are, "Advise fearlessly," and, "Believe in yourself." I think that is the message that we'll end on for other women in tech. Erin, thank you so much. This has been so much fun.

Erin Abraham:
Thanks, Michelle. This has been enchanting. I've loved it.

Michelle Sally:
Oh, I've really enjoyed this conversation.

Erin Abraham:
We should do this again.

Michelle Sally:
We should. Thank you, Erin. Thank you for listening to our special mini-series on Women in Tech. If you enjoyed this episode and don't want to miss the rest of this mini-series, please subscribe to Ashurst Legal Outlook wherever you get your podcast. And while you're there, feel free to leave us a rating or review. If you'd like to find out more about Ashurst, please visit www.ashurst.com. In the meantime, thanks very much for listening and goodbye for now.