Women in Tech: Season 2, Episode 4

Jess:

Hello and welcome to Ashurst's Women in Tech podcast series. We're very excited to be back for our second season In this series, we share the stories of inspiring women working at the intersection of innovation, law, and technology. If you haven't listened to our first season, you can find us under Ashurst's Legal Outlook Podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Jessica Leung, and I am an Associate in Ashurst's Corporate and Digital Economy team in Hong Kong. The Ashurst Digital Economy team supports clients' digital strategies and identifies how they can leverage new technologies from a legal perspective, and I'm super excited to share some examples of that with you today while chatting to our guest. In today's episode, we celebrate Girls in ICT Day with a conversation with Lucy Spencer, Lead Council in the Network Infrastructure team at Meta.

In our discussion, Lucy explains how her legal career has evolved and how she entered the broader TMT space with the Digital Economy team at Ashurst, and her eventual switch to becoming an in-house council with the Meta legal team in Singapore. She shares with us stories from her early legal career, journeying through multiple jurisdictions, reflects on the lessons she's learned along the way, and what excites her about the ever-growing Digital Economy sector. Here's our conversation.

Jess:

Hi Lucy, thank you very much for joining us today. It's very, very exciting to have you to speak with us about Women in Tech. To kick off our chat today, can you walk us through your journey to becoming a TMT lawyer? Did you always know you wanted to work in tech?

Lucy:

Hey Jess, nice to talk to you. Very, very excited to be here. That's a good question. No, I absolutely did not know that I wanted to work in tech. I'm here now and I'm very, very happy, but it was certainly not where I started out. My goal was for a long time to become a diplomat and to work in international relations. So I'm pretty far now from where I started out. When I finished high school, I did an arts degree in international studies, which I really loved. I focused on studying different cultures and learning different languages, and that was terrific, but at the end of it, I realised that I probably needed to do some further study if I was going to get one of these dream jobs that I wanted, and that led me to a law degree. And then as I got further into that law degree, I realised that I actually loved it and law was very much my thing.

When I finished my law degree, I had the opportunity to do my training contract, or my articles, with DLA Piper in Melbourne. And so I did my training contract and all the various rotations that go with it, and solidified that I was heading towards front end transactional work. So after a couple of years working in the infrastructure team at DLA Piper, I wanted to have a bit of an adventure.
I was studying Russian at the time, so I thought it would be fun to go and work in Moscow for a little while. So I got a job at White & Case in Moscow, and I joined their M&A team for a couple of years. That was extremely cool. It was a wonderful experience, both personally... I studied Russian, I met lots of great friends, I met my husband, but I also had a terrific time career-wise and learnt a lot of very, very cool things. But after that, I kind of thought, oh, I need a break from law, I'm tired.

So I did a master's in international law. I studied French for a while. I did an internship with UNESCO, and then the coolest part was having my daughter. So I hung out with her for a while, which was very, very cool and probably the best thing that I would recommend to anyone, is taking some proper time off to be with your firstborn. But then after a little while when my daughter was about 15 months, I thought I really miss working, I'd like to go back to work. I miss working in a law firm. So I looked at what was around and was lucky enough to get a job in Hong Kong with Ashurst in Josh Cole's team.

So I was hired as an M&A lawyer, and I started out with him doing predominantly M&A, but after a little while, Josh was starting to bring me into some of his TMT matters, and I was thinking, actually, this is more my thing. It had the combination of a lot of commercial law, a lot of drafting, commercial agreements, but also I was doing some privacy work, getting up to speed with the various legislation that cuts across the technology sector, learning about the different ways things work. And I thought, no, this is really something that I could do. I enjoy it. I'm genuinely excited to do this type of work. And so that was my transition. That's how I ended up as a TMT lawyer. I was just super lucky that I was in a team and working for someone that supported me to make that transition.

Jess:

Yeah, it's really interesting as in your career trajectory. You have actually worked in multiple jurisdictions, and I think that it enables you to adapt in different environments and also practice area. And I think being a transactional lawyer allows you to actually learn a lot of transferrable skills, the drafting point of view, and actually the problem solving side of things, so working with you and Meta, when you were Ashurst, and also with Josh, I think that is also the reason why I really love about TMT work, is that everything's bespoke, but you'll still be able to leverage your M&A background and also applying those skills in TMT projects. Because tech is developing at such a high speed now, and everything is new, and actually having that problem solving skills and almost crisis management skills from being an M&A lawyer is actually really useful, I think.

Lucy:

I think that's right, Jess. I think it probably, it feels and sounds like I went to a bunch of different practice areas, but actually from that moment of deciding that I wanted to be a front-end lawyer and do transactional work and be a commercial lawyer, I think as long as you're developing those base skills, it's not as hard to switch focus areas as it probably would be in other areas. And as I said, I was just lucky that someone was prepared to support me in that transition, but ultimately you're right, the same skills, it's pretty transferrable.

Jess:

Yeah. And I'm sure the listeners can deduce by now that I used to work with Lucy in the same team, and very fortunate to have the opportunity to work with you as colleagues during our time at Ashurst together, and then having you now as our client after you moved to Meta last year. Can you tell us about your transition going from private practice into in-house at Meta, and what are the major differences and what does a typical day look like now?

Lucy:

I guess the transition from private practice to in-house, that was pretty organic for me, because an opportunity came up, there was a maternity leave position at Meta, and there was a possibility for someone to go on secondment to fill that maternity leave position. I was very vocal about wanting that position, so that happened quite naturally. I went from doing some Meta work with the team at Ashurst to moving in-house as a secondee. So it wasn't as stark as otherwise private practice to in-house transition would be. I also had the benefit of the support of Josh and the team, so I wasn't completely on my own in a new environment. But I did that secondment position, and then at the end of that, extended it a little bit more, and then a little bit more, and then a little bit more, and then eventually it had been a couple of years that I'd been on secondment, and so had to make that decision, and I was lucky enough that there was an opportunity for me to switch permanently, so I said goodbye to my private practice days and became a full-time Meta lawyer.

So the major differences, there's the obvious ones that you can think of, there's that not focus on billable hours that private practice obviously has, and the difference of being inside in a company, but I think probably for me the major difference that I spot the most just in my daily life is how integrated I've become here in the matters, and I think that's the thing that I probably love the most about now being in-house.

I think when I was in private practice and the private practice experience generally, is that you're instructed to do a specific piece of work, and you do that piece of work, and of course in a transaction, you see where that goes, but often you don't get to follow it, whereas in-house, you see exactly where it goes, how people digest it, if they have trouble interpreting it, what it ends up achieving and its impact, and I really love that ability to see things follow through and to be involved with my clients here on a really granular level of how that advice translates into what you actually do about a situation, that ability to just get so involved in the matters that I work with.

One of the major differences for me in my time as an in-house lawyer is my ability to control my time a bit better. I think here it's easier for me to say, can we do that at five o'clock instead of two o'clock, whereas obviously when you're in a service provider role, you don't have as much discretion to dictate the terms of times and calls and that sort of thing. And I think for me and my circumstances, it just makes it a lot easier for me to be able to manage my day in a more controlled way. A typical day?

Oh, that's a hard one, because I don't think there really is ever a typical day for me. I mean definitely there are things in my calendar that I can predict, but things change, and I think that's the beauty of an in-house role. And from what I hear, that's kind of typical across in-house roles. You're there to support the team that you're supporting, and whatever comes up you deal with. So sorry to give a dodgy answer, but there's not really any typical day for me. It's what's happening at the moment, what's the most pressing thing, what do I need to support people on?

Jess:

Yeah. Yeah, I think I guess that in-house, a lot of people would maybe envisage a more predictable day, but I guess in Meta, being such an innovative company and everything is just so new, I guess it's just quite hard to actually have a 9:00 to 5:00. You basically just have to work with the commercial team, and the projects team quite closely to meet their project deadlines and just to make sure that you support them. Also, I know you have three kids, and it's amazing that you're still able to forge a very successful legal career, would you be able to share with us how you manage to juggle family and work and achieve the work-life balance?

Lucy:

Not sure that I am, but I give it my best. So the work-life balance, the struggle is real, and I think any working parent, on top of those issues, it's hard, it's hard to keep everything going. I have three children, they are eight, six, and three, so they're still in those ages where they need their mama a lot, and I try to be there as much as I can, but I also have a full-time job and I have commitments, so yeah, the struggle is real. I think for me, it's all about prioritising, looking at the list of what needs to be done for work and for home, what's urgent, what must be done, what should be done, and what I can probably put off till tomorrow, and making sure that those really high importance ones get ticked off.

Looking at my kids and saying what's really important for them. One of my kids loves that I'm there to tuck him in, so I need to prioritise that. That's his thing. Other kids don't care if I'm there to tuck them in. They care about something else. So it's kind of looking at that list and trying to tick off the things that really matter. I remember a senior lawyer once said to me... I met this woman, and she had four children. She was a very senior lawyer. And I said to her, "Wow, you're amazing, how do you juggle everything? How do you keep it going?" And she said, "You just work it out." And I was kind of like, "Well, that's terrible advice. What does that even mean?" And I think as I get older, I kind of understand that more.

You just work it out. You just need to find out that balance that works for you, that you can keep those things that are important to everyone and that need to be done going to the right standard, and then those things that you can move and shuffle around and do at different times, and you need to do them. The reason I really love my job now is because I have that flexibility. I can control a lot more my time and I can say, okay, let's move that call to 5:00 because I have to do this from 3:00 to 4:00, and then 4:00 to 5:00, I can do that, but these are the times that work for me. And then it's about being able to say, okay, I have to get up at 6:00 because my kids get up at 6:00, so why don't I work for a couple of hours from 6:00 to 8:00, and then I can not work from 8:00 to 10:00? So I think it's just that balance and trying to work out the best way to make it work for you. You just work it out.

Jess:

Yeah. I think sorting out our priorities I think is the most important thing. And I think it also reminds me of my conversation with another senior lawyer who was my mentor, and she said that a lot of people said you can't have it all, but it's not exactly true. You can't have it all, all at the same time, but if you prioritise certain things, you actually can have it all just at different stages of your life. Thank you so much for sharing that personal story and journey with us. That's really very insightful. So going back to your role at Meta, can you share with us what is the most interesting thing about working with their current team at the moment, with the network infrastructure team?

Lucy:

The most interesting thing? So probably the most interesting thing for me in my job at the moment is the diversity, the extreme difference in the types of things that I can do in a day and the different matters I can be working on and different issues I can see. It's very cool, because you never know what's going to come next. I've always got to be ready for whatever crops up, and that's terrifying, but also always keeps it interesting and it always keeps me learning. So stressful, but great.

Jess:

And what do you think are the benefits and challenges of being a female tech lawyer in a largely, still, male dominated industry?

Lucy:

So I guess for me, it's not really a factor that I'm a female lawyer in a tech company. Definitely here, I don't see any distinction. There's no issue for me about being a female lawyer. My manager's a female, most of the other people, the other lawyers that I work with are female. I mean, there's definitely more males working in this space, but there are also some extraordinarily impressive females. So, I guess in my experience, it's just a non-issue being a woman in a largely male dominated industry, but I'm very aware that that is an issue for other tech lawyers. So I guess answering the question more holistically, I think the challenges would probably be just making sure that women are heard, they're able to speak up, carve out their place at the table and be heard.

Women's inherent nature is sometimes to be less outspoken than men as a generalisation, and I think that's something I'd like to see change, and that is something that affects women I think in all roles, not just in the technology sector, but in any sector that has a predominantly male presence. And then there's the obvious fact that women are going to have to juggle more than men in terms of taking breaks for children, coming back to work after children, that sort of thing. Obviously things are better now than they were 20 years ago, but women still need to, they give birth, they take time out. That affects your body. That affects your ability to come back and be... You're tired if you've been up half the night.

Even if you're sharing that with your partner, it's tiring. It's tiring on your body. You're not at the same place that you were pre-child, and that's a challenge that any lawyer will face, any woman lawyer, whether they're in the tech sector or not. But it's a challenge, and it's a challenge that as an industry we need to keep working forward and find ways to not change, because it won't change, but support and make it easier. In terms of the benefits, I think it's just the diversity. Women have cool ideas. They come at things from different perspectives. They're very smart. There's just a lot of benefit that can come about by having a woman on your team if you're in a male dominated sector, and I think that should be embraced more.

Jess:

Yeah, I totally agree. I think that it's also important to find an organisation actually that supports that, diversity, encouraging women. And I think that we're very lucky that we're working in Meta and also Ashurst. They're both organisations that really support that. I am due in a week, and I have-Yeah. The benefit of actually taking 26 weeks off for my maternity leave, and it actually is a parental global policy. And I think too, having that option for both men and women actually allows that equality, instead of just putting the pressure on women as well. So I think that if organisations now, even in the future, can actually start these initiative, it would really help women to thrive and also be able to not have that burden of raising family just on their shoulders, but actually equally shared with the partners.

Lucy:

Yeah, absolutely.

Jess:

How do you think we can better support the representation of women in the TMT world?

Lucy:

That's a really good question. I think something that I really like to see is things like women in tech groups and events to help women connect and skill-up and join together. And so I think the creation and support of those sorts of things, both financially in terms of promotion, is a really good step, but I think for me, the important thing is making sure that women have a voice and that women that work in sectors, where there is a male dominance, have that power and that confidence to speak up and give their opinion and sit at the table and be vocal and say what they think. Women have brilliant ideas just like anyone, just like men do, and I think it's just making sure that that space is carved out for everybody, irrespective of their gender.

And then of course there's the little things like making sure there are women in promotional documents and normalising going on maternity leave, making sure there are flexible working arrangements. I think that's something really good that has come out of COVID, if anything, which is the ability for women or anyone to work from home and say, actually you know what, I'll start early, but I'm going to pick up my kids at 3:30, and I'm going to be offline until 6:30 when they're in bed. And that person will possibly end up working much harder than the person that stayed in the office from 9:00 to 6:30 because they're focused, they know they've got to get stuff done, but it's that flexibility that it enables people to balance that work-life juggle and to feel supported and to feel like they can be the best person, give the best to the industry that they can.

Jess:

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that actually is one of the only good thing coming out of COVID, is that actually we get the flexible working arrangement, and people actually embracing that. Having that, I think a lot of women would agree that it actually really helped with the work-life balance, supporting the young family and be able to just... Work is also recognising that it's about deliverables, it's not about sitting at your desk from 9:00 to 5:00 and having the face time. It's really about delivering and be able to maximise your capacity in a way that suits you the best, instead of conforming to the traditional corporate setting that you just have to be at your desk at a certain time.

And to be honest, a lot of times if you stay at the office from 9:00 to 5:00, a lot of times might actually not be productive. You go out for coffee, you go out for lunch. But if you actually be able to separate your time or cutting to your own schedule, sometimes actually it would be more beneficial for both the company you work for and also for yourself as well.

Lucy:

Yeah. And I think that's particularly so in the legal sector, because it's not necessarily a job... As you said, there's no point in sitting around, especially in terms of private practice where you're billing hours. As long as you do those hours, as long as you do the work to a good standard, what does it matter where you are? And of course there's always that element of team spirit and making sure that you connect with your colleagues and that you're bouncing off each other, and knowing what each other's doing and collaborating, but I think in this post-COVID time, so much of that does work via Zoom.

We needed to make it work. And a lot of companies now, they have these policies of you have to come in one day a week or two days a week, and that's really enough. There's no need to be in the office every day of the week. And I think for women that have young children or children or families or elderly parents, whatever it is that they have going on at home, the benefits of allowing that flexibility is so enormous, why not?

Jess:

Yeah. It also helps with our mental health as well.

Lucy:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jess:

So what advice would you give to your younger self and to aspiring young women who would like to join the tech world?

Lucy:

Maybe I'll start with the aspiring young women part of that first. I think it's kind of what I touched on before, speak up. I think that's probably the message that I would give. If you're interested in an area of law, pursue it and speak up. Sit at the table, make your voice heard. If you've got something to say, say it. Don't be afraid. You might look like an idiot, but I think, ultimately you end up not being the idiot because you're the one that asks the questions, you're the one that learns, you're the one that grows. In terms of the other part, what advice would I give to my younger self? I don't know, because I think my journey to becoming a technology lawyer, it was such a path. There's a lot of people that finish law school and say, wow, I really love that TMT stuff, I'm going to go and find the law firm that's the best at that, and I'm going to get a job there, and that's going to be my thing, and that's awesome.

If you have that insight young, terrific. You'll have all the opportunities that you can, and that'll be a great experience. But for me, it was a different path. And so I got there a bit later, but I wouldn't change that. So I guess, probably, I should talk to myself and say, oh, go straight into technology law, but I wouldn't want to do that, because it was a journey and it got me here with a lot of fun along the way, learned a lot of cool stuff, and it was all part of the learning, and I draw from those experiences every day.

So I guess advice to my younger self would just be follow your dreams and follow... As cheesy at it sounds, if you're interested in something, just pursue it, and if life takes you on different paths, then that's okay. Someone once said to me in an interview for a law firm, "Wow, your CV is very colourful." And I was like, "Thank you." I don't think it was supposed to be a compliment. I took it as a compliment. But it's okay to have a colourful CV, and it's okay to do different things, because it's your life, and if that's what you want to do, well then pursue those dreams, follow those dreams, and eventually you'll end up where you want to be.

Jess:

Yeah. I think that's very similar for me as well. I didn't start off thinking, oh, I really want to do TMT, but I guess back in the day, a lot of firms don't really have a dedicated tech or TMT team-

Lucy:

That's right. Yeah. It wasn't even an option.

Jess:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think it's just as different opportunities arise. For me, I had the opportunity to go on secondment to two big tech companies, Alibaba and Tencent, and for both times I'm doing something that's completely unrelated to what I was trained to do, like M&A, but it really helped with my problem solving. And as I said, like TMT is an ever-evolving sector, and having that be able to think on your feet and be able to have any curve ball thrown at you and you still be able to find the answer, I think that is actually one of the skills that actually being a TMT lawyer would need to have, and I think having different kind of experiences throughout your career might actually be a plus than actually being so quickly dive into TMT.

But it's a different world now. Firms are really developing their TMT in the Digital Economy sector, and I think for young women who are coming into the legal industry or the tech industry, now they actually have a lot more options than we did.

Jess:

Thank you very much, Lucy, for sharing your experience and such interesting stories in your personal journey and through your legal career. It was very insightful to me, and I'm sure for our listeners as well. Thank you again.

Lucy:

Thanks Jess. It was really great to talk to you.

Jess:

Thank you for listening to season two of Ashurst's Women in Tech podcast series. If you enjoyed this episode and want to listen to the rest of the season or catch up on season one of our Women in Tech podcast. Please subscribe to Ashurst's Legal Outlook wherever you get your podcasts. While you're here, feel free to leave us a rating or review. If you'd like to find out more about Ashurst's Digital Economy team, please visit www.ashurst.com. In the meantime, thank you very much for listening, and goodbye for now.